F800GS / F658GS Q&A Thread

[Rob]

With the launch of the F800GS and New F650GS (F658) yesterday, hopefully everyone reading this has had a bit of opportunity to read up on the specs, and take a look at the pictures. If you haven't yet, take a look at the following links and read up:

F800GS Pictures @ BMWMOA.org (our parent organization):
http://www.bmwmoa.org/features/new_milan07.htm?pg=F800GS

F658GS Pictures @ BMWMOA.org (our parent organization):
http://www.bmwmoa.org/features/new_milan07.htm?pg=F650GS

F800GS / F658GS Specs @ Rubber Mag:
http://www.rubbermag.com/news/0711/071106_06.html


Now thats out of the way, let's talk about the bike, or rather lets do a bit of Q&A about it. Reading the hard specs and looking at the pictures can only go so far. Without any further ado:



Q:
Whats the status of the US import of both bikes? Do we have a price and a date?

A:
The F800GS will be imported into the US as of the date of this post. We should see them in dealerships as early as late February / early March as a late 2008 model. The F8GS will start at $10,520 before destination, PDI and tax.

The F650GS is a bit more up in the air. It's been cleared by the California emissions people for sale as a 2008 model which probably means that EPA has given it the go-ahead as well. That said, we haven't been given any confirmation that it indeed is coming let alone any pricing or release information.



Q:
What are the differences between the two bikes?

A:
Probably about $1,000 [lol2] Seriously, it's all about the propose of the motorcycle. The F800GS is designed as a natural replacement for the F650GS Dakar with a 60/40 bias for the dirt verses the road. The F800GS is obviously taller, more butch, and has more power than it's smaller brother. A larger front wheel and a more off-road bias set of tires pretty much round out the bike.

The F658GS in comparison is a bit smaller (and lighter!), it has a lower seat, and generally is designed for (gasp!) women, newer riders, and people of smaller stature. Onroad is the game here with a set of street biased cast wheels and less aggressive rubber.

Now that said, what people may be overlooking just how much *better* this bike probably is when compared to the outgoing F650GS. More power (over 20hp) and smoother delivery should be just the beginning here.



Q:
How does it compare to everything else in it's class?

A:
Well, it's doesn't directly, and that's the point. It's slightly heavier and more powerful than the still basic KLR, it's more capable than the Suzuki Weestrom, and the KTM 640 Adventure is close to when it comes to weight but again gets smoked when it comes to power.

Additionally, when you combine the availability of optional ABS, heated grips, what is sure to be a virtual plethora of add-on storage and options and you're sure to have a winner here.



Q:
What's the deal with the mileage on this guy? Will it really get 60mpg?

A:
Yup, it should. The F800S/ST are clocking in with something in that area and the GS should be no different. The bike has a 4.2 gallon tank on it, so we're looking at around 200-250 miles in range on a full fillup.



Q:
How tall is tall when it comes to the seat?

A:
F800GS seat height is 880mm or 850mm depending on if you opt for the standard or low seat. Both are higher than a comparable R1200GS. (I have a feeling that alot of people are going to be opting for the low seat) The F658 clock in at 820mm or 790mm depending on seat and 765mm with the optional x-tra (yes, my word) low suspension like the outgoing F650GS.

All seats are engineered to be x-tra (my word again, still not BMWeese) narrow, so what might seam to be really high may just not be.



Q:
Chain, WTF? Where is the belt?

A:
No where to be found - and for good reason. With the bias of the F800GS being offroad, the last thing that you want coming between you and pure riding bliss is a stone in your belt. With the F800GS being the primary focus of the design, going back and adding a belt to the F658GS probably wasn't realistic.

Shaft drive would have made both bikes too close to the R1200GS.

Overall, it's not all bad. Chains are relatively easy to maintain, are pretty cheap, don't sap as much power as shaft, and give you a little bit of option when it comes to changing stuff around.



Q:
Why is there such a big difference between the wet weight of 178kg and the dry of 207?

A:
Excellent question! What it basically boils down to is that the dry weight simply isn't realistic is really is nothing but a marketing tool. That measurement is the bare-bones motorcycle only, sans gas, engine oil, coolant, and brake fluid. Additionally, the battery wouldn't be included in the measurement as well. Typically the difference between the 'dry' and 'wet' weights of motorcycles is about 30kg.



Q:
I see the GS has aluminum spokes. Is that normal for spokes on an off-road bike now?

A:
First off, it's aluminum [lol2] and second, it absolutely is. In BMW world, the R1200GS was really the first Enduro machine with cast wheels. Additionally, the geeks with the cast wheels were generally looked down on and harshly tormented by their brethren who sprung for the spoked wheels. (just ask my dad)

All joking aside, it's a trend that will continue on indefinitely. The real question here is if they will be *tubeless* spoke wheels as the previous generation were tubed (at least in the old F650GS. That's an answer that we just don't have yet.



More Q&A to follow. What can we answer for you?

[Desert Dave]

How about reserve electrical capacity?

With a 400 watt stator I believe this is the same as the S/ST ? Assuming that both bikes draw about the same juice anyone know how much is left over for lights, heated gear etc?

[Aether]

Originally posted by Rob
[
Q:
Whats the status of the US import of both bikes? Do we have a price and a date?

A:
The F800GS will be imported into the US as of the date of this post. We should see them in dealerships as early as late Februsary / early March as a late 2008 model. The F8GS will start at $15,520 before destination and tax.



Typo: That should be $10,520

[haildamage]

why is there such a big diffence between the wet weight of 178kg and the dry of 207?

"Dry weight 1): 178 kg
Unladen weight, road ready, fully fuelled 2): 207 kg"

the former 650GS was 176dry/192 wet!

[Rob]

Originally posted by Aether


Typo: That should be $10,520

Correct. Fixed. Thanks :)

[Mystic]

I see the GS has aluminium spokes. Is that normal for spokes on an off-road bike now?

[Rob]

Q&A for haildamage and Mystic done! Yay!

[Mystic]

Originally posted by Rob

Q&A for haildamage and Mystic done! Yay!


No... can't see it... what you're talking about that is. Did you have an answer on the Ali spoke thing Rob?

[Mystic]

Originally posted by Mystic

Originally posted by Rob

Q&A for haildamage and Mystic done! Yay!


No... can't see it... what you're talking about that is. Did you have an answer on the Ali spoke thing Rob?




Okay, found it Rob. that's a bit tricky. So lets be clear, when i talk about spokes I mean like bicycle wheel spokes not cast alloy spokes as are on the F650GS.

So what I understood from your post was they have cast alloy spokes. So some dude cast these spokes the size of bicycle wheel spokes and built the F800GS wheel out of them and that's the same as the R1200GS. Have I got the meaning right.

Now on a side note.... re the F650GS I can see the conversation now when someone owns one of these;

Passerby - So is that a 650 cc engine.

F650GS Owner - No, it's an 800 cc engine.

Passerby - yeah right, pull the other leg. It's just a 650cc isn't it.

F650GS owner - no it really is an 800 cc engine, here have a look at the service book (which he handily has having been asked this question so many times)

Passerby - So why didn't they call it an F800 GS then.

F650GS owner- well they already make an F800 GS which is more off-road where as this is more of an on-road poser.

Passerby - So they made it look like a real GS but because they already had a GS they decided to give it another number such as 650 so that there would be no confusion with the F800GS.

F650GS Owner - yes, that's it, you got it. You can see there logic can't you.

Passerby - No. Are you sure you're not pulling my leg.

F650GS Owner - No, I'm not it really is an 800.

Passerby - so this goes just as fast as the F800 GS then.

F650GS Owner - Well actually it doesn't, they detuned it so that it has less power than the F800GS.

Passerby - detuned it? really? why?

F650GS Owner - well I think they also wanted to give it less power as well as make it look like a GS but not be a functional GS. Does that make sense?

Passerby - None at all. So this was German thinking on how to clearly differentiate between a full GS and a poser GS with an 800 engine.

F650GS Owner (now experiencing conversation de ja vu as he tries again to explain how BMW do things) - Yes that's what BMW decided. I think the 650 refers to the fact it now has the power of a 650 twin.

Passerby - so they produce a 650 twin what do they call that.

F650GS Owner - no they don't produce a 650 twin but if they did this is what it's power would be.

Passerby - so why not just produce a 650 twin.

F650GS Owner - yeah I know i can't figure it either.

Passerby - or why not use letters different to GS which says it's and on-road GS like GS-R or just GR.

F650GS owner - You're not the first to suggest that. (the owner says sighing while reflecting on why its so hard to explain why he has a bike called 650 with an 800 engine but detuned to the power of a 650 twin if one had been produced although none had and with the letters GS when the bike clearly isn't and regretting his decision to buy a bike that needs so much explanation).

Frank, the F650GS owner went on to sell his bike after finding it too hard to explain what his bike was. He then booked himself onto the psychologists couch to deal with the trauma of trying to make sense where none could be had and how he couldn't convey that to others. He started out with a bike with an identity crisis and ended up with one himself.

All Frank needed to do when asked the first confused questions was to shrug his shoulders and say "it's a BMW". And people would understand it doesn't have to make sense.

BMW finding success with this form of branding went on to produce the F1000GS which was an 800 but tuned to the power of a 1000 had a 1000 twin been produced and bore all the resemblance of a sport bike but was really a full off-road bike. The owners of the F1000GS had no problems with explanations;

Passerby - Is that a 1000cc engine
F1000GS Owner - Yes.

____________________________

have i said i really like the look of the GS [bow]

[Mystic]

On a more serious note

you have to wonder whether the 650 will arrive with a 650 twin engine. Maybe it's cheaper not to have to re-tool for a 650 engine but I can't imagine the engine remaining 800cc.

I wonder if this is just a case of using the 800cc engine in the mock up of the bike until a 650 engine is ready.

______________________

Rob - are the new front shocks on the GS adjustable

[nicko]

I dunno why they didn't just call the new ally wheel bike the F800GS and the more off-road looking 21 inch spoke front wheel jobbie an F800GS ADV........ but praps thats why I'm not in marketing...........

nicko (getting back to his own sorry employment)

[haildamage]

Originally posted by Rob

Q&A for haildamage and Mystic done! Yay!


thanks,

i understand the difference between wet and dry weights! my question is, why is there a 16kg difference on the current F650GS and a whopping 29kg difference on the F800GS?!?

[batamali]

Originally posted by Mystic

Now on a side note.... re the F650GS I can see the conversation now when someone owns one of these;

Passerby - So is that a 650 cc engine.



Owner - yes it is...

Being that passerby rides a Yamaha XT660/KTM 640 etc.

The rest of the story goes too fast for a passerby so he can, for a brief moment, read just the first two letters on a 650GS licence plates...
[ride]

[London_Rich]

I have owned a 650GS for almost a year and have been waiting for the official announcement of the 800GS. I had already made up my mind that I was going to buy one before seeing it. Now I have had chance to actually have a think about it I think the 658GS maybe the bike for me.

I love the practicality i.e. size, weight, running costs etc. of the current 650GS, however it could do with a bit more power and another cylinder as the current one isn't really very good at motorway speeds 70MPH is 5000RPM in top (5th gear) so there's not a lot left for overtaking etc. Also the vibes get uncomfortable after a while.

I am not alone, so I expect the bike to sell very well. I agree completely that the naming is very confusing. I suspect that they had to call it a different model e.g. F658GS because so many parts are different to those on the F800GS, plus this give BMW the opportunity to introduce a F658 ADV, R, S etc! [ahh]

A common criticism or comment about the 1200GS is that it's too big and I think that BMW have really messed up making this one so big.

[Tim Cullis]

http://www.infar.co.uk/tim/gs/P0040100-boxes.JPG
photochop of blue with panniers

The £5495 on-the-road price is just £100 more than the outgoing F650GS single cylinder bike, so I think the F658GS will be extremely popular. OK, you need to outlay some more for a bash plate, maybe the higher screen of the F800 (but maybe not) and possibly a centre stand. Then there's ABS to consider.

The F658 is £300 cheaper than the G650 Xcounty which doesn't bode well for sales of that unit. Dealers have been told to expect F658GS/F800GS sales to be 50/50.


Tim

[London_Rich]

I have seen a number of pictures and I have only seen 1 topbox in any picture. If there's only one, the thin one pictured above, then Givi etc. will be rubbing their hands. A topbox that can't fit a full face lid in, in my opinion, is a complete waste of time.

On a wider note some of the accessories for the old 650GS were pretty bad - the high screen made windblast worse and ALL the top boxes leak. Hopefully they will have put a bit more thought in to these, but one the face of it their accessory department have let them down!

I was just looking at the accessories for the new Honda Transpalp, which will be in my opinion the f658's big rival, and they seem to be lot better. My new bike I think is a choice between those 2. Mind I think I will be giving it a while before buying a new BMW model - with all the problem the F800s/st had - I will let someone else be in guinea pig!

[keithr]

I must confess that I have been wathching this thread with great interest [booze]

I want to buy a F800GS (for touring) - it will be complimental to my F800S (commuting)
But now that it has finally been announced, its all a bit of an anticlimax.[ahh]

Sure, it has very similar power and torque outputs to the current R1200GS, but with much lower weight - so on paper (power to weight ratio) it should win hands down.

But I believe BMW might have missed the boat here.[bh]

Personally, I would have wanted to keep the belt drive and with the distances we cover between fuel stops in rural Africa a larger tank is essential, 16ltr wont cut it, need at least 22-24ltr, or a range of 450-500km.

Why did BMW reduce the size of the front brake disks from the F800S/ST to the GS ?
A cast alloy wheel with tubeless tyre is easier fix a puncture on the side of road than with a spoked rim with tubes. :(

Now I'm having to reconsider - I might have to get the R1200GS ADV [eek] (but with the R1200GS seat)

[Seed]

And another question for BMW - why does the more off-road focused bike (the F800GS) have an engine with more powerful top end and a higher top speed, whereas the road-orientated bike (F650GS)have a detuned engine and lower top speed? [huh]

Seed

[Der Lustenauer]

I have seen a number of pictures and I have only seen 1 topbox in any picture. If there's only one, the thin one pictured above, then Givi etc. will be rubbing their hands. A topbox that can't fit a full face lid in, in my opinion, is a complete waste of time.

On a wider note some of the accessories for the old 650GS were pretty bad - the high screen made windblast worse and ALL the top boxes leak. Hopefully they will have put a bit more thought in to these, but one the face of it their accessory department have let them down!

Topbox can be varied between 25 and 35 litres and fits a full sized helmet. Looks to me like the luggage on the 1200GS.

The high screen on my 2000 F650 GS is pretty good for me and none of my factory luggage ever had a leak despite having been on the bike (and outside)almost all year round. I am looking forward to the expandable panniers as the ones on the single have been a bit hard to adjust.

[Crinkly]

Originally posted by Seed

And another question for BMW - why does the more off-road focused bike (the F800GS) have an engine with more powerful top end and a higher top speed, whereas the road-orientated bike (F650GS)have a detuned engine and lower top speed? [huh]


Asked the same thing myself. For me, the softer-tuned engine, budget price, single front disc, etc. would be more appealing for something I was going to ride (& probably drop a couple of times) on the dirt.

I was hoping for something like the 800GS with cast wheels & a 19" front (actually suspect it's on its way)

[Der Lustenauer]

Asked the same thing myself. For me, the softer-tuned engine, budget price, single front disc, etc. would be more appealing for something I was going to ride (& probably drop a couple of times) on the dirt.

I was hoping for something like the 800GS with cast wheels & a 19" front (actually suspect it's on its way)

So the new F650 GS sounds like your kind of bike, and its here in spring.

It's my choice anyway. But still thinking of the poser value (in my case!) of the F800GS, especially in black and yellow (really love the looks of it!!!!). But for what I use mine, the 650 wins. Better on the road (suspension and front tire size), where I am most of the time, and still pretty decent offroad as I learned on the previous F650GS (not Dakar!) at the offroad courses in Wales.

So, could I have the 650 in black and yellow please?

[jrwooden]

Originally posted by Seed

And another question for BMW - why does the more off-road focused bike (the F800GS) have an engine with more powerful top end and a higher top speed, whereas the road-orientated bike (F650GS)have a detuned engine and lower top speed? [huh]

Seed


Also interesting to me was that the STREET bike F658 has a HIGHER numerical ratio in the final drive than the F800 - 1:2.625 (16/42) vs. 1:2.412 (17/41) according to the rubber mag. article.

Even though the F800 has more HP I would still have expected it to have a lower ratio (higher numerical) since it is slated for off-road use and needs the low end torque?

Same tranny right?
Did I miss something else?

Jim

[Mystic]

The 650 was a big seller for BMW. You have a large number of them out there. So where do those riders migrate to. The 800ST/S/GS may be to big, fast or tall for many.

So I'm wondering if the 650 is designed as an entry level bike, a back to riding back designed to get people into the BMW fold.

I'm with the guy above on the GS and GSA labels but the new 650 isn't really an 800 in stature.

Beats me how it all happened and I'm going to love to hear the sales people demonstrating the bike with an 800 engine called a 650. I wonder how the whole explanation will go.

It's clear from the posts above that there will be riders that prefer the 650 over the 800 so you'd have to say it looks like BMW may be right in producing the bike. The only question was why not use the 800 label. If it had the 800 label you have to explain why it is detuned and has less HP. Maybe that's it, the 650 label is the lesser of two evils to explain. Having an 800 motor in a 650 while unexplainable is a plus for the buyer. "you get a bigger motor than they say". Having an 800 labelled 800 but detuned with less HP is also unexplainable but a minus. "no I can't explain why your 800 has less power". Wouldn't you feel a little cheated if they called it an 800.

But the bigger question is why not call it an 800 and have the same power. It just gets worse. I'm going to stop thinking about it. It's BMW.

[Custard]

Well, I spent quite a bit of time with the new F800GS and F650GS at the NEC bike show today.

And overall, I'm a bit disappointed.
I was prepared to (hoping to?) rush back to my BMW dealer and put down a deposit for an April bike - but not now.
I'll see how the test reports go, and perhaps consider a test ride sometime next year, but I don't think they'll even come close to the R1200GS.

I think BMW are diluting the "GS" brand with the oddly-named F650GS, which is more like an F800Lite, and not a GS at all.
The engine tune of the "proper" GS seems odd too - the same power as the S and ST - what happened to de-tuning "for more midrange"/bottom end?

And the chain drive? Very poor. How difficult would it have been to fully enclose a belt?

So, sorry to pour cold water on all the excitement, but we've all been waiting for a long time, and expecting a lot of this bike.

After seeing it in the flesh, it doesn't deliver.




...and thinking about the whole Adventure Touring Thing...
at the end of a long day, when your bike's all crudded up and covered in crap, do you really want to take the panniers off to clean/lube/adjust the chain?

Charlie didn't!
http://F800Riders.org/forum_old/UPLOADED/Custard/20071130111319_Charlie340.jpg
70.26*KB

[London_Rich]

I agree with Custard. I went to the NEC yesterday and fought my way through to have a good look at the F800 and F650 and I am a bit disappointed too. I have been waiting for these bikes to come out for a while and have the money burning a whole in my bank to buy a new bike. Neither bike really filled me with excitement, so the money will be staying where it is for a while.

Frankly I feel a bit empty - I wanted an imaginary bike that is now a reality and I don't like much. To fill the gap I need a new imaginary bike - I think Triumph 675 Tiger is the bike for me!