F800GS ABS

[nigel]

I've finally run out of excuses and am about to place an order for the F800GS. A couple of questions you BM experts might be able to help me on..

Fisrt off, am I likely to get much, or even any discount if I negotiate, or am I wasting my time?

More importantly, what is the general view on the usefulness of ABS? I've never had it on a bike, and never really skidded either so you could say its pointless. On the other hand £500 to stay alive is cheap.

What would happen if I meet some diesel on an approach to a roundabout, will it actually help me, or would it turn off the brakes so that I would freewheel (whilst wondering what is going on) right into the traffic as opposed to 'just' falling off?


Thanks
Nigel
PS it will be the faster bumble bee colour.

[Pat H]

BMW aren't know for being very open to negotiation.
They will claim they can sell all they can source and make no money on them.
You maybe able to haggle for a discount on accessories or kit if you play hardball.

Re the ABS. Like you I've never needed it and am alive still today. However as every year past I considered the relative drop in ABS price more and more attractive.
My move to the F800S was significantly because of the ABS.
However I've been put at risk by that ABS more int he last year than the 15 years before without.
I'm now not sure even without that ABS fault that I'm a rider who can benefit from ABS. I've too many years of being careful to trust it.

I have little stomach for the feeling of gliding along while desperately grabbing brake knowing they aren't there because a computer thinks it knows better.

[nicko]

I reckon there's no chance of any sort of a deal on the 800GS - if anything there will be a waiting list.

As for the ABS, I opted not to have it. An extra 500 quid for something of dubious worth that spoils the feel of the brakes. No thanks.

As Pat says, if you've been riding long enough to know instinctively that hitting the brakes as hard as possible at the first sign of something unexpected is often the worst thing you can do on a bike then its of no benefit.

Then again if you're more used to four wheels (zzzz..fiddle with radio..satnav..phone..aircon..zzzz..anything going on out there?...oops!)

nicko

[noj]

One thing to note about the F800GS ABS (if you've been concerned by the problems with the S & ST version) is that despite all the BMW global press releases stating that this system has 'improved rear lift-off detection' their PR company called me to explain that this was a mistake in all languages of the release and there has been NO improvement.

Now we know they don't accept there's a problem but strangely someone put this statement in the press release, got it translated, signed off and issued it to the world and hasn't retracted it formally (so far as I know). Because I did a bit of digging via the press office and separately through my dealership I've received the same answer twice - but always verbally, they don't seem to want to put this in writing...

[Dunny]

how much is it ?

[nigel]

Thanks all; its now ordered! sans ABS. no discount, and April delivery. I went for the heated grips since the switch will look a stack better than an aftermarket one, the center stand since I will be touring loads and the 'computer' (which I was a bit pissed with having to buy) since its necessary to see how much fuel is left. Really, the stand and computer should have been in the basic package as far as I am concerned. I can't wait.
Nigel

[Pat H]

So you didn't order the optional tyres, seat, engine, front forks and fairing?
They costa lot more to add later you know!
[:O]

[pottsy]

I went for ABS because I wanted to try it, so far very impressed by it and no obvious down side. Not been off road yet but you can turn it off so don't see a problem. On the road I have only ever felt the rear come in and then it was very acceptable in the way it worked.

[midengineracer]

I went for ABS because I wanted to try it, so far very impressed by it and no obvious down side. Not been off road yet but you can turn it off so don't see a problem. On the road I have only ever felt the rear come in and then it was very acceptable in the way it worked.

I did a test shortly after getting my bike. The back will pulse easy with a little front brake applied. It took grabbing considerably more than I was comfortable with to activate the front. I was sitting in my normal position and the rear was not in danger of lifting, so I didn't experience what happens when the front deactivates.

I have seen in someone else's signature about not using the rear brake to prevent this problem, but that is non-sensical (supposedly dealer advice) as the system is detecting lift-off and that will only happen from too much front brake and plenty of traction. That is of course, barring rough riding that would allow the bike to pitch, as from bumps. I would like to know if the rear brake deactivates completely during the front deactivation as that should be unnecessary and the system should have the smarts to disable only one circuit. ABS would mean no stoppies with the system enabled.

I left my ABS active for my few runs in the dirt and to test the feeling in slippery conditions. I have also gotten brief pulsing when I found slippery stuff in the road and was glad that I had the ABS. Anything serious in the dirt and I would disable the ABS.

[Pat H]

I have seen in someone else's signature about not using the rear brake to prevent this problem, but that is non-sensical (supposedly dealer advice) as the system is detecting lift-off and that will only happen from too much front brake and plenty of traction. That is of course, barring rough riding that would allow the bike to pitch, as from bumps. I would like to know if the rear brake deactivates completely during the front deactivation as that should be unnecessary and the system should have the smarts to disable only one circuit. ABS would mean no stoppies with the system enabled.


Well I advice avoiding the rear to help minimise the problem for those affected but for the very many who aren't that wouldn't be prudent advice.
The dealer adviced not using the rear at all but I think that was an off the cuff remark to try and side step the issue.

The logic behind the advice is simple. If you brake on ground that has a bump or dip and your combination of weight, suspension setup, braking timing and any number of other factors conspire to make the wrong combination the ABS system can believe the rear end is lifting (when in fact it may have for only a fraction of a second) If at that time you have the rear brake engaged the rear will lock and this can then the rear wheel lift detection to become confused.
At this point both brakes are blocked. the rear because the bike correctly detected it wasn't spinning the front to help get the rear back on the ground.

If this happens under those rare conditions then you lose both brakes for an extended period of time. If your at risk of that happening (IE it's happened once or more times) then avoiding the rear brake while braking on less than perfectly smooth road may help reduce or even avoid the loss of brakes.

If you haven't had an extended brake release it would be daft to apply a workaround for an issue you don't suffer from.

[twisticles]

If this happens under those rare conditions then you lose both brakes for an extended period of time.

I'm sorry I don't get it. Why would you lose brakes for an "extended period of time"? Doesn't the ABS check for locked wheels several (20 or so?) times a second? In which case the brakes are coming on and off, not "lost" for the duration of the rear wheel lift. And the idea of reducing braking to get the rear wheel (and its effective braking) back on the floor will reduce overall stopping distance?


There seems to be a common feeling that ABS 'increases stopping distance'...but a couple of hours on the net and I'm left feeling this is mostly annecdotal.

The only study (http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedi...ngDistance.pdf) I can find seems to suggest the following:

ABS gives more consistent braking across different bike loads, speeds and brake combinations
No rider skill required
No learning process to use ABS

Whereas:

Non-ABS braking requires greater rider skill
Rider performance and ability to 'threshold brake' is required for shortest possible stopping distances

And even so, the BEST non-ABS braking distances are still not as good as AVERAGE ABS braking distances (in these test conditions, straight line wet/dry and dry bends).

Even assuming two locked wheels gives the best friction for stopping, there can't be many bikers who can control that on a road in emergency braking scenarios.

Remember: ABS kicks in at the point that wheels would lock on a non-ABS bike. Everytime your ABS activates, ask yourself "If that had been a skid instead, would I have been able to control it?"

[Pat H]

I'm sorry I don't get it. Why would you lose brakes for an "extended period of time"? Doesn't the ABS check for locked wheels several (20 or so?) times a second? In which case the brakes are coming on and off, not "lost" for the duration of the rear wheel lift. And the idea of reducing braking to get the rear wheel (and its effective braking) back on the floor will reduce overall stopping distance?


There seems to be a common feeling that ABS 'increases stopping distance'...but a couple of hours on the net and I'm left feeling this is mostly annecdotal.



The only study (http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedi...ngDistance.pdf) I can find seems to suggest the following:

ABS gives more consistent braking across different bike loads, speeds and brake combinations
No rider skill required
No learning process to use ABS
Whereas:

Non-ABS braking requires greater rider skill
Rider performance and ability to 'threshold brake' is required for shortest possible stopping distances
And even so, the BEST non-ABS braking distances are still not as good as AVERAGE ABS braking distances (in these test conditions, straight line wet/dry and dry bends).

Even assuming two locked wheels gives the best friction for stopping, there can't be many bikers who can control that on a road in emergency braking scenarios.

Remember: ABS kicks in at the point that wheels would lock on a non-ABS bike. Everytime your ABS activates, ask yourself "If that had been a skid instead, would I have been able to control it?"

Your quite right twisticles for ABS systems that work as designed. But those few that have suffered an ABS extended release are clearly experiencing the system operating outside of the expected parameters. For some, as yet, unknown reason the logic in the ABS that works to prevent stoppies by blocking brake operation gets confused and allows a prolonged blocking of the brakes.
BMW are aware that a number of riders have experienced this and those riders are concerned that it puts them at risk but to date BMW's only response has been to advice affected riders to release and re-apply the brakes to cancel the ABS operation.
This clearly isn't helpful on BMW's front but they, to date, refuse to address it any further.
Bearing in mind that the number of affected riders worldwide is very small those affected have little chance of getting BMW to consider what's going wrong and what could be done to resolve it. So in the mean time those affected either sell up and move on or work around it.

[batamali]

Just two questions:

- is it repeatable?
- why is it so hard to prove that there is a problem with ABS?

[Pat H]

Just two questions:

- is it repeatable?
- why is it so hard to prove that there is a problem with ABS?

For me no. The 4 or 5 times it's happened in 19,000 miles I've not been abel to reproduce it.
I can produce the short ABS block associated with bumps or dips in the road and I know other ABS equipped bikes seem to suffer this even less but I can live with that. it is a budget ABS after all.

I believe some are able to reproduce it but but BMW don't deny that the brakes may well be blocked for as much as a car length or two just that they claim this is normal and acceptable.

[batamali]

I was referring to twisticles' post - the way ABS should work.

Following the logic, there should be a proof ABS is not working as it should. I didn't experience it but you did, in order to get it fixed I suppose there have to be some diagnostics involved first...meaning someone has to reproduce it on demand...

Or not?

[noj]

Posted this before, but my latest guess is that the circumstances that create the extended (dangerous) release occur when the frequency of the following bounces resulting from a single bump somehow exactly matches a frequency of the ABS lift detection. Would be a plausible explanation for why it does not happen to everyone and it's virtually impossible to reproduce on demand.

To hit the exact frequency for the brake switch off seems need an unlucky combination of speed, type of bump, amount of brake applied, amount of preload, amount of damping and who knows what other factors...

[Pat H]

I was referring to twisticles' post - the way ABS should work.

Following the logic, there should be a proof ABS is not working as it should. I didn't experience it but you did, in order to get it fixed I suppose there have to be some diagnostics involved first...meaning someone has to reproduce it on demand...

Or not?

Well first BMW would have to agree that an extended block of brakes is a danger.
Currently their view is an extended block of the brakes is normal operation and the system operates as intended. They therefore have no interest or inclination to investigate or resolve.
It will take a rider taking legal action to force the issue and the nature of the problem is that the odds are the rider wouldn't be around to pursue that case and the evidence from the scene would be that the rider just failed to brake as the brakes would appear quite normal.

So for BWM it's a win win situation and for the few riders affected it's just one of those things.
[:(]

[midengineracer]

Pat H,
That explanation helped a lot with the reasoning. I also agree it was the dealer trying to avoid the situation. The problem is that if it can't be reproduced and is not stored in the computer memory, then they can't prove anything did happen, the reasons it happened, and create a fix that will indeed fix the problem.
Not using the rear wouldn't actually help still since the front would still slow down more quickly than the rear if it is bumping along funny (by which I mean enough to activate the anti-lift).
My question then would be, how long would it take for you to recover if the ABS was not there and the rear was beginning to lift? I think that the symptoms probably are a bit of a freak, a coincidence of events as described but that in the case of a wheel lift, the system is responding exactly as desired. Your only issue is the false detection of a wheel lift.
I know that on my old Ninja, I got mismatched wheel speeds often when braking in to right handers, especially in concert with a downshift (I can't RPM match well on a motorcycle so I just try to ease the clutch back in). This always resulted from a very light rear that would give me a bit of a wobble before settling in line again. It would not be difficult to give the wheel speed sensors a reason to think I was about to do an endo, just like the condition I just subscribed.

Perhaps another tact to use with the dealer is not that the ABS is not functioning correctly, but that the anti-lift is giving false positives and activating the ABS unnecessarily. Perhaps the ability to have a sport setting for the ABS so that more sporting riders will have a bit more of a delay before the anti-lift goes into effect.

[Pat H]

I think your right. My rear ABS sensor has played up a few times and resulted in riding without ABS and I can confirm that similar braking over bumps doesn't result in any handling problem.
Don't forget we're not actually talking about the rear really leaving the ground and the rider needing to control that. The rear wheel lift of the ABS is detecting a lift that a mere human rider wouldn't even notice.
It's almost impossible to get BMW to agree that it has rear wheel lift.
As for asking the dealers you'll be doing well if they understand what ABS is. Start to mention rear wheel lift detection and extended brake release and their eyes glaze and they go into silly grin and nod mode till you leave.

[midengineracer]

Fortunately for me, my dealer is very familiar with the bike. I tell him stories of other dealerships listed on these sites and he wonders how they stay in business. They have also let me watch them run diagnostics on the BMW computer when my bike had problems (I was curious how different the bike system was from the automotive system, it is a lot different).

They also have a Master mechanic, that makes me feel better. I am afraid of the service I will get in the US when I go back.

I do realize you are talking about what is not really lift, that is why I recommended the different tactic. If their eyes begin glazing so quickly, you definitely won't be getting it fixed by them, unless you get a field engineer to come work on the car (only happens in real oddities or lemon cases, otherwise they stay on the phone). Actually, I don't know if they have field engineers for Motorrad as I was working with automobiles.

The difference between the two tactics, from the point of view of the company, is that your way is the release of the brakes is incorrect where rewording will mean that it is functioning correctly but the computer is getting false readings. The release was correct for what the computer thought was happening, they need to reprogram the system to read the situation correctly. Something at that level has to go back to Munich for problem solving, your dealer wouldn't be involved beyond relaying symptoms.
The company, or the Germans in general, can be very particular about how you talk about things. I have had several frustrating conversations because I will miss-speak a sentence, getting one word wrong and the focus for the next 20 minutes is not on fixing the problem but fixing the wrong word selection. My example about it not being the ABS that malfunctions but the lift-off detection. It is one system to me but if I were to say ABS, then only the standard part of the system would be looked at, nothing would be done about the lift-off circuit even if that was obviously what I was complaining about.

[Pat H]

Good idea but I suspect my bridges with BMW on this matter are well and truely charred.
But for others aflicted by this it's worth a shot.

[Mystic]

There are extensive posts on what PatH is talking about. It appears to be the loss of all brakes and for a distance of up to two car lengths. The event occurs for me;

- on a dry road,
- braking in a straight line
- not braking hard
- hitting a small bump or dip the size of a catseye
- all brakes are lost even though you still hold the brake lever
- you think, this it, I'm gone and then miraculously it comes on again.

I have ended up in a roundabout just missing a Jeep as a result of this feature.

I have never had the ABS activate in 30,000 km's of riding except for this fault and the times that I have deliberately braked hard to activate the ABS.

It is my opinion and then opinion of other riders that have experienced this that it will only be a matter of time before a rider is killed. A dead rider will not lay a complaint, no investigation will happen and BMW will get away with killing a rider.

We can't make the problem occur. It has happened to so many riders, so many times, in some many countries that if we're making it up it would have to be one hell of a conspiracy.

For me there was no chance of losing directional stability or rear wheel lift off. It seems possible that a square bump is the cause of the problem and BMW's poor suspension has poor highspeed response and can't track the bump.

BMW need to

1/ advise all riders worldwide so a rider is made aware of the event and what can be done.

2/ install ABS off switches on all F800's that don't have them

3/ fix the software so this doesn't occur.

Sadly for a couple of years BMW said the problem didn't exist. Apparently the many riders worldwide were part of one big conspiracy. NOW in the last month BMW have finally acknowledged the event and say it is normal ABS operation but that hasn't been provided in writing. Apparently it is in an email sent form Germany.

My belief is BMW Germany do not understand the problem. BMW Germany seem to have a policy of deny, deny, deny, deny until they have a solution. BMW Germany seem to be able to respond quickly when a fault affects sales but not when it has the ability to injure or kill a rider.

I consider BMW's actions to be extremely negligent and in very poor form. It seems that making a buck is more important than rider’s lives.

BMW PLEASE FIX THE ABS PROBLEM - THIS IS POTENTIAL GREAT BIKE LET DOWN BY THIS CATASTROPHIC FAILURE.

That's briefly my thoughts on the matter. I appreciate it's hard to locate a fault that is intermittent but there is enough information for them to be able to either reproduce the fault or at least change the software parameters to stop it occurring. Bugger them for placing such a low value on my life.

BMW's tech here has advised me not to use the rear brake at all.

The temporary solution is when you experience a complete loss of brakes, release the brakes fully and re-apply them and they should come straight back on. Rather than lsoe the brakes for up to two car lengths.

Hope this helps.

It's pretty hard not to feel incredibly pissed off with BMW for what they have done and continue to do in light of this problem. BMW Germany are nothing short of useless. BMW NZ and the techs down here have done everything they can to get the problem fixed.

It would be interesting to see a rider injured in the US and BMW sued for millions for a problem they knew about and did nothing with.

Down here the legal system is very different sadly. Great bike, great brakes when they work. Useless ABS system.

[Pat H]

+1 to Mystic

With one suggestion.

Lets' not have an ABS on off switch as the bikes not intended for off road it would be daft to have your ABS off to avoid the extended release and then not have it that time you need it.

Better that the ABS switch actually installed under the left hand grip cover is re-instated and the ABS software adjusted so that the ABS has 2 modes. 1 is very light last resort ABS operation (default) the second is super sensitive (but hopefully not as sensitive as now) for wet and icy riding.

However one reason we may not see any movement on this from BMW is that the ABS firmware may not be upgradable externally. Often safety critical systems have most of the code hardwired read only to prevent corruption.
It's possible that any change would result in a swap out of the ABS unit and I just can't see BMW covering that. A few dead riders even if they sue may well be better value.
Sad to think that companies can think that way but history has shown that's exactly what happens. The buck wins every time.

[batamali]

Gentlemen,

in order to get problem fixed there has to be a proof that problem exists.

Again, I fully support your efforts but would like to add that maybe "those guys from BMW" - like they're Martians or something - probably receive thousands of e-mails on a daily basis...people complaining about all sort of things...so they probably have to decide which ones are real and urgent...

I come from similar business environment and you wouldn't believe how much rubbish we get from "unsatisfied customers" daily. Proud to say less than 0,5 % IS OUR FAULT. Rest is misinterpretation of the user manual, complete lack of information or even intentional abuse of the product. We even have consumers of other brands (similar, or copies) complaining to us.

You can assume that an unsatisfied consumer takes at least half an hour of my employees' time. We keep it up only because of those 0,5 % that actually have a problem (warranty issues).

So, again, please do your best to prove/reproduce/film or do anything else that would HELP those "BMW guys" help you.
I'm sure they are not ignorant, they're just a part of the system.

p.s. I don't work for BMW or am paid by them. But I wouldn't mind...khkh:rolleyes:

[Mystic]

I hear you. And with problems to date BMW seem to have a mentality of "there is no problem" until we have a solution. Then they acknowledge the problem and their fix. Until then it is deny, deny, deny.

There are so many layers of deny, say it doesn't exist, say we know and it's normal operation, or no one else has mentioned it, or this is the first time I've heard it when you know another bike was in last week with the same problem. It seems the responses worldwide are the same. BMW seem to have a policy of doing everything to avoid fixing a problem and only when they can't avoid it do they do something.

I feel they are going too far in not owning up to problems. Lets face it later F800 should have longer stalks on the mirrors. I'm glad they finally came up with a new mirror design to avoid the ongoing replacement of mirrors as consumables. But this seems to be a fix to avoid an ongoing cost.

I still think their system of recognising and responding to faults is bloody poor. I intend to get my ABS fixed. I am sick and tired of the hours I'm putting in trying to communicate with them and getting things on this bloody bike fixed. It seems I have to do a huge amount of work to get them to do anything decent on the ABS even though it's a lethal flaw.

Personally I think they do everything they can to piss customers off and alienate them. So yes I hear where you're coming from but I think the system and the guys running it from Germany are a bunch of tossers. Frankly I thought Germans had more pride in their work but it seems that they produce substandard stuff and let the market tell them what's wrong.

I keep hoping my bike gets stolen or something happens to it that it gets written off then I won't have to deal with BMW Germany of this piece of shit ABS system.

If BMW think this is going away they are sorely mistaken.

BMW FIX THE BLOODY ABS SYSTEM BEFORE A RIDER IS KILLED - YOU OWE US AT LEAST THAT. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU PUT PROFIT BEFORE RIDERS LIVES.

[Mystic]

+1 to Mystic

With one suggestion.

Lets' not have an ABS on off switch as the bikes not intended for off road it would be daft to have your ABS off to avoid the extended release and then not have it that time you need it.

Better that the ABS switch actually installed under the left hand grip cover is re-instated and the ABS software adjusted so that the ABS has 2 modes. 1 is very light last resort ABS operation (default) the second is super sensitive (but hopefully not as sensitive as now) for wet and icy riding.


Hi Pat

The suggestion for the off on the ABS is that it is something they can do immediately. Getting them to change parameters would be harder than getting an F800 through the eye of a needle.

At least then you could ride vigorously safely in the knowledge that the "piece of shit BMW" ABS system" will not fail and kill you.

It seems a good short term measure.

Cheers.

[Mystic]

Gentlemen,

in order to get problem fixed there has to be a proof that problem exists.

Again, I fully support your efforts but would like to add that maybe "those guys from BMW" - like they're Martians or something - probably receive thousands of e-mails on a daily basis...people complaining about all sort of things...so they probably have to decide which ones are real and urgent...

I come from similar business environment and you wouldn't believe how much rubbish we get from "unsatisfied customers" daily. Proud to say less than 0,5 % IS OUR FAULT. Rest is misinterpretation of the user manual, complete lack of information or even intentional abuse of the product. We even have consumers of other brands (similar, or copies) complaining to us.

You can assume that an unsatisfied consumer takes at least half an hour of my employees' time. We keep it up only because of those 0,5 % that actually have a problem (warranty issues).

So, again, please do your best to prove/reproduce/film or do anything else that would HELP those "BMW guys" help you.
I'm sure they are not ignorant, they're just a part of the system.

p.s. I don't work for BMW or am paid by them. But I wouldn't mind...khkh:rolleyes:

I spent many years in service as well and know what you mean. I love the client that rings up complaining about a problem and then a while later as you work through things with them you find it's not even your product but they rang the wrong company.

I know also you can't fix a fault when it's not happening.

This is a life threatening fault though. It is widely reported. BMW need a system that allows dealers to take on board what a customer is reporting and to respond to it. This thing of "no there is no problem" and "no what you are saying can't be happening so you must be imagining it" is just an utter load of rubbish and an insult to customers.

They need to have a better way of responding. Having said that where the fault is clear BMW have responded and replaced items. Where they didn't have a solution like the drive pulley early on they waxed on about how the ride was okay and no one had a problem and it was normakl. Even though people were taking it for a test ride and not buying it as a result. The loss of sales seemed to prompt BMW into action and voila... a new drive pulley. Then it was all, "yes it was a problem", "yes the ride was terrible", "yes riders were put off the bike by it". What is this attitude of lets pretend things don't exist and lie to customers in the face of the obvious until we have a solution attitude. it's the behaviour you expect from a young child not a mature company.

BMW response to customers needs improving.

That's what I think.

[drid]

I think we must start performing a series of documented and repeatable experiments that can cause brake loss. i ride my bike for about 3 weeks and i have started to be able to reproduce some brake loss (and also expect it so i don't crash).
I propose for every one to throw in some ideas that could help others to reproduce brake loss in their bikes, finally we can compile a list of test that we can all perform and send to BMW.
That way we will identify exactly what the problem is and at least we will learn to expect it.
One would say that this is BMWs job and not ours, on the other hand i believe too that it's all about money, so if we have solid proof of the problem then we may have leverage. It's not about helping BMW engineers it's about making BMW not being able to deny deny deny.
Just my thoughts...

[Pat H]

Great idea drid and it was just as good last time Mystic suggested it something like a year ago.
However it's so difficult to coordinate via a forum and get reliable meaningful data.
I suffer from the problem and yet in 24 months haven't been able to reproduce the problem on demand. I can get ABS release but only the short one which is normal (but still not nice)

If BMW were prepared to accept that there is something worth looking into and would share some information on the processes involved the testing and replication of the problem would be far quicker and easier. This is why it's the manufacturers who normally sort this sort of problem. They have all that data, the code used to operate the ABS, the parameters of operation of the ABS etc.
BMW are holding the deck of cards and all we can see are the edges of a few.
We can do our best but we're working blind long distance.

Mystic has started to collate members with the issue and hopefully from that we can draw a response from BMW that may start something happening.

[jrwooden]

... and the 'computer' (which I was a bit pissed with having to buy) since its necessary to see how much fuel is left.
Nigel

Nigel:

I agree with you on the computer ... but went for it because of the fuel gauge and, really more important to me, the temp. gauge. I did want to be able to watch the gauge and see if the temp. is STARTING to climb for whatever reason (loose hose?? ... blockage ... dead fan ... riding conditions ...) rather than wait for the idiot light to come on ...

It's "only" a few bucks more....

I have a buddy that is into boats.... he says that BOAT is really an acronym for:

"Break Out Another Thousand" .... looking at my accessory list I'm starting to think I'm buying a "BOAT" ;-)

Jim