BMW Petition

[pldac]

I withdraw my comments on this. Not because anyone has asked me to but rather in consideration of those new to the F800 and this forum. This forum is about sharing in a non intimidating environment and people may find my comments confronting.

[Rob]

I don't have a problem with this, under a few circumstances.

First and foremost, I need to be frank about the place of this community. We, essentially, are walking a very fine line. Much like other communities of this type we are run on a shoe-string budget. We, if served with a cease and desist letter, have zero budget to 'fight' it with, and thus could be shut down quite quickly. We... I have a vested interest in keeping BMW happy.

That said, this site lives to serve the needs of the F800 Rider Community. If there is need for something to be done, believe me, I will help out in any way possible. But, when we start to organize there is a line that is crossed. If this indeed is the road that the membership, for the most part, wants to go down, it need to be done so in a very deliberate, thoughtful way.

Thats the reasoning, here is the best path to go down if you want to proceed here. Three things:

First - Do we REALLY want to go down this path? Every single motorcycle - Every. Single. Motorcycle. - has issues. The F800 does have it's share for sure, but absolutely not disproportional so. If part of the problem here is the dealer base (which it seems to be alot are), I would strongly suggest speaking to the general manager of the dealer in question to voice you concerns. You might also want to post a thread targeted to people in your area and then take the discussion offline.

If the issues indeed are with the motorcycle fundamental design - proceeding down this path might be a good thing. The 'attitude' of the OEM however is ABSOLUTELY NOT something that we can solve here. Perish the thought pronto.

Second - We need to take the emotion out of this. If you are disappointed, sad, or just plain angry, you need to stuff it. The idea here shouldn't be to embarrass them into fixing something, or publicly humiliating them, or sabotaging sales of the motorcycle. None of these will help at all, and all probably aid into bringing this community to a screeching halt.

The goal here should be the logical presentation of suggestions for improving the motorcycle and hopefully forging a mutually beneficial give-and-take relationship. We, as a whole, are a thoughtful, articulate, generally positive bunch folks. I honestly believe that we are the best BMW owners group out there. We should be able to make this happen.

Third - We need a list. A comprehensive list. When I say list I don't mean "Bad Mirrors" or something similar to that. We identify the issue, relate why it's not acceptable and should be improved upon, identify a seriousness of the issue, and suggest a solution.


That's my spheal. Discuss.

[Mystic]

Rob I'm with you on the second and third point. So far I've had great support from BMW and hadn't considered pointing out design improvements.

I was unhappy with the fact I couldn't use synthetics and took this up with Rotax and got a fairly quick response from BMW.

It seems to me that if I let them know my views on;

- the mirrors
- the side stand
etc

and let BMW know what I would have liked that this feedback may be very useful and result in quicker change for future bikes. All of which is a good thing. Of course if there was a chorus of "can you consider extending the mirror stalks - it'll make the mirrors more useful" that this would be supported.

When I had emailed Rotax about the oil I got a response back from BMW Germany in a couple of days. To be fair I'm not sure I would have got that fast a response from anyone.

My bike goes in Friday and will come back with the synthetic oil.

Like most I love the bike and potentially what it can be.

On the plus side my ST corners much better than the S or other ST I've riden.

[pldac]

Re 'complaining up the line', just to clarify. I have communicated with BMW Australia on three occassions. That was a wasted exercise. They say they have no control over dealers and "what mods?", 'what issues? We would have heard something'.

I was in the middle of writing a detailed response to Germany. Hence a lot of the work aleady done and my earlier suggestion.

However i'll go it on my own at this stage. Pity though because I don't think they are listening to individuals.

"You might also want to post a thread targeted to people in your area and then take the discussion offline"
Well perhaps therein lies the problem. I think there are only 3 and one of them I know isn't on this forum. I just happened to bump into him in the street and he wasn't interested in the Internet.

[Herrdirektor]

Originally posted by pldac

Re 'complaining up the line', just to clarify. I have communicated with BMW Australia on three occassions. That was a wasted exercise. They say they have no control over dealers and "what mods?", 'what issues? We would have heard something'.

I was in the middle of writing a detailed response to Germany. Hence a lot of the work aleady done and my earlier suggestion.

However i'll go it on my own at this stage. Pity though because I don't think they are listening to individuals.

"You might also want to post a thread targeted to people in your area and then take the discussion offline"
Well perhaps therein lies the problem. I think there are only 3 and one of them I know isn't on this forum. I just happened to bump into him in the street and he wasn't interested in the Internet.

It's a long shot, but if you feel uphappy by the way you have been treated by BMW Australia, you may want to contact BMW Germany.
Here's a link (click on Kontakt) and fill in some details, like your VIN number of your bike. I would do it in English; will draw attention. http://www.bmw-motorrad.de/de/de/index.html
Who knows what will come out of this.
:D

[Ataman]

Originally posted by Rob

We... I have a vested interest in keeping BMW happy.


Rob, are you in any way connected to BMW company?

[Pat H]

Well for the record I've tried contacting my dealer.

When that failed I contacted Motorrad Uk. their response is we know nothing speak to your dealer who knows everything.

Failing that I spoke to Motorrad Germany who passed me straight back to Mottorad Uk who passed me straight back to the delaer who by now was well pissed off that I'd gone up the line.

I'm sorry the attitude of Motorrad Germany and certainly it's UK office is at best non customers centric at worst well lets not say they don't care but it sure gives that impression.

And nobody to date has been able to explain a sensible reason why BMW Germany have been unable to make a few simple design changes as have been fed back for nearly a year now by so many. What does that actually say...

[Rob]

Originally posted by Ataman

Originally posted by Rob

We... I have a vested interest in keeping BMW happy.


Rob, are you in any way connected to BMW company?

Am I an employee of BMW? Nope. I do however run a site that concerns one of their motorcycles and I have a vested interest in keeping it up and operational.

Like I said in the above post that you pulled that quote from, they could shut us down quite quickly if they tried. I don't want to see that happen.

[Pat H]

Don't worry Rob the current developments in attempted control of web content has demonstrated that it just makes the situation explode.

If BMW attempted to shut you down I'm sure me and others would pick it up and run with it elsewhere. That and the flak BMW would get from the attempt to silence the public voice would be a PR disaster for BMW.

It's impossible to imagine they would be so stupid.
Don't forget BMW haven't even attempted to have an input here yet. if they are concerned then let them voice those concerns to members here and resolve things without resort to corporate muscle.

[Ataman]

Originally posted by Pat H



If BMW attempted to shut you down

On what basis? Really[ohno]

[Pat H]

Well normally the line would be that posting comments that are damaging to the company.
However they would have to prove that the comments were inaccurate and posted to deliberately damage the company reputation.
I haven't seen anything that would fall under any of those categories.

For the likes of Guys like Rob it's the fact that the likes of BMW have the financial muscle to exert pressure.

But as I said there have been some spectacular backfires of flexing that corporate muscle. Look at the current HD DVD encryption keys being posted on the Internet.
Digg.com where in a similar position with members posting the cracked keys for HD DVD titles. the corporate muscle was exerted and the Digg owners tried to pull the news items. However the user based rebelled and the owners eventually agreed they were wrong to restrict the information and have re-instated the stories. The corporate muscle is still trying to suppress the actual code for the keys but it's now been printed on tea shirts and is the words to a song.

I can just imagine the press that would ensue and increase in Internet traffic if BMW decided to try and silence the voices of their products owners. Without ever having tried to contribute to the discussions.

[Rob]

I've PMed the started of this thread with a suggestions as to where to go for assistance.

Enough talk about petitioning and shutdown. Locking this thread and sending it off to die.

[iugradmark]

Originally posted by Pat H

Well for the record I've tried contacting my dealer.

When that failed I contacted Motorrad Uk. their response is we know nothing speak to your dealer who knows everything.

Failing that I spoke to Motorrad Germany who passed me straight back to Mottorad Uk who passed me straight back to the delaer who by now was well pissed off that I'd gone up the line.

I'm sorry the attitude of Motorrad Germany and certainly it's UK office is at best non customers centric at worst well lets not say they don't care but it sure gives that impression.

And nobody to date has been able to explain a sensible reason why BMW Germany have been unable to make a few simple design changes as have been fed back for nearly a year now by so many. What does that actually say...



Is there any way that we can create a pinned area on this site to capture the necessary information to help owners out with dealers that are struggling to find the repair info. I'm thinking of photos like we have in the transmission thread, images of service bulletins, service bulletin numbers, etc. Right now, people have to search and read through pages of postings and even then often cannot find anything other than others having the same problem and lucky and unlucky owners that either have the good dealer help or that don't.

It would be fantastic to just be able to print a factual set of info by bike problem to take into the dealer and make everyone's job easier. Obviously BMW should be doing this for their dealers but perhaps we can fill the void?

Mark