Oil seepage from weep hole on water pump?

[jrwooden]

So today I was inspecting my radiator hoses to see if they were creeping off... (they weren't)

BUT I noticed a wet oily spot about the size of a nickle under what I "assume" is the weep hole for the water pump. It's on the bottom side of the pump housing up toward the front.

I cleaned it all up and will just keep an eye on it and see if more oil appears.... might just be left over from the machining and assby process...

But ... of course I wondered if anybody else had noticed something similar?

Thanks,
jim

[Pat H]

A common design on water pumps is to have an air gap between the waterside seal and the engine drive/oil seal. This is to ensure that a seal failure results in water leaking out of the hole rather than into the engine.
As you say it could just be residual assembly oil having run out. If it continues it's more likely to be the engine side oil seal failing.
Time will tell.

[jrwooden]

Well............ at least I have plenty of warranty left

I'll watch and wait....

Thanks,
Jim

[nicko]

Yep - I had the water-side part of the seal fail on mine. When the engine got good and hot it leaked coolant out the hole.

Was fixed at the 12k service when they introduced the post valve check cam cover oil leak - I'm sure they do that just to prove they had the cover off..... might fix that one myself over the winter.


nicko

[jrwooden]

Gezzzzzzzzzzzzz I realize these engines are NOT the easiest thing in the world to work on for what the shop is charging for labor rates.................

Ohhhhhhhhh never mind .... I'm just cranky....

[Richard230]

Failure of the water pump seal was a very common problem with the 1997-2000 F650 Funduro bikes.

[jrwooden]

Thanks Richard!

I'm really having trouble figuring out how engine oil could make it to the weep hole.... but the pictures in the manual really don't have a good shot of the view that would be needed....

On the Funduro was it the "water side" seal or the "oil side" seal that failed...

I guess there are the pair of o-rings around the outside of the pump with hole in the middle?

Maybe that is what drains down to the weep hole???

And then whatever seal exists around the driveshaft its self ...

Jim

[Richard230]

Fortunately I never had a water pump failure on my bike, but my recollection from reading all of the complaints about water pump failures was that the water side failed and water would start dripping out of the hole. When the pump was removed the seal and pump vanes would be found to be worn out. It must have been a set of bad pumps from the manufacturer.

My only failure was the steering head bearings. They went out within 8K miles. When I had them replaced under warranty, it was found that the grease had run out of the bearings due to using grease that could not take the heat from the aluminum frame. Of course the quality of the bearings might have had something to do with it. The replacement bearings were from Bulgaria and cost $5.50 each. However, when properly greased with that water-proof blue stuff, I never had another problem for the next 28K miles.

[Richard230]

I might add that the water pump used in the Funduro looks very much different than the one in your diagram. My recollection is that it was made of plastic and had those wavy conical vanes that you see in car water pumps.

[Pat H]

Thanks Richard!

I'm really having trouble figuring out how engine oil could make it to the weep hole.... but the pictures in the manual really don't have a good shot of the view that would be needed....

On the Funduro was it the "water side" seal or the "oil side" seal that failed...

I guess there are the pair of o-rings around the outside of the pump with hole in the middle?

Maybe that is what drains down to the weep hole???

And then whatever seal exists around the driveshaft its self ...

Jim

The first diagram shows a cut out just below where bolt 1 screws in. This is, I believe a drain channel from up behind that black rubber or plastic disc and where the oil would come from.
If that part held in by bolt 1 was removed you'd see the seal after the engine side bearing. This seal is the one that would have failed.
The two seals indicated on the second diagram are water retaining seals not oil.
It looks like there is an air gap, as expected, between the water seals and the oil seal and it's that chamber that is vented via the drain hole.

[Dunny]

my guess would be that what you are seeing is an oil/grease stain from lubing the seals on installation.

[EmmBeeDee]

My only failure was the steering head bearings. They went out within 8K miles. When I had them replaced under warranty, it was found that the grease had run out of the bearings due to using grease that could not take the heat from the aluminum frame.

That's again the Funduro you're talking about, right? The one with the oil tank in the frame? That would certainly melt the shb grease out quickly.

But then the F650GS singles are also fairly hard on their steering head bearings - we've had to replace them twice in 90,000 kilometers on ours which was well greased, at least for the second set.

In fact aside from tires, oil, sprockets and chains, that's the only thing we've had to replace on that bike in the whole time we've owned it.

Mike

[jrwooden]

my guess would be that what you are seeing is an oil/grease stain from lubing the seals on installation.

Thanks Dunny!

That's what I'm hoping!
I'll keep an eye in it and if an issue develops I'll post back here!

Jim

[drid]

I am noticed a small oil and coolant leak from the weep hole at mark 7000km, just a few drops, i start to believe that it is related to the rattling noise that also comes from the coolant pump (from day one, there is a thread on this).
In addition a friend of mine has also bought an F800GS and i noticed small trace of oil coming out from the weep hole (that was the day the bike was delivered). As always the service shop responded "it is nothing to worry about" even though at mark 1600 the cylinder head was soaked in oil, it looked like a cylinder head gasket leak but was actually the weep hole once again.
I need to find a service shop that will not treat me like i am a complete retard.... (yes sir of course it is supposed to only have one wheel....).
Maybe i should plan a road trip to Germany and have them check my bike....

[jrwooden]

I am noticed a small oil and coolant leak from the weep hole at mark 7000km, just a few drops, i start to believe that it is related to the rattling noise that also comes from the coolant pump (from day one, there is a thread on this).

Drid:

From reading the manual the impeller is just "screwed" on to the end of the drive shaft and you remove it by sticking the tips of a pair of plyers into two holes and giving it a twist...

I wonder if yours just needs a twist in the opposite direction to tighten it up a bit perhaps it has just worked loose?

Jim

[jrwooden]

Well at about the 2K mile mark now and I have more oily seepage ... not a lot ... about the size of a dime...

Anybody else got this?
Am I the only one, or am I the only one that is this anal

Jim

[midengineracer]

I haven't seen any weepage from my bike.

I would set an appointment up with the dealer, tell them you have an oil leak and it is getting all over motor. Small exageration but if it bothers you. There should be no seepage. BMW's come from a place that fails a car if it has a leak during the biennial inspection.
It is not normal for internal fluids to be on external parts. I think that is all I would say to the dealership if they tell you it is normal. I would probably call BMW Motorrad NA if they still did not want to fix it, as well as look for another dealership (if you are that lucky).

[jrwooden]

Thanks MER!

I wiped it off again and will call the service dept. and inquire if it keeps up!

I'm not sure how well stocked they are on parts so they may want to order up ahead...

I'm going to have to look at the DVD again... besides the two o-rings around the outside of the housing it would "seem" that there should be another seal of some sort around the drive shaft also, but that seal may be intregral to the pump assby (at only $157)

I can't quite tell from the picture:

http://www.webparts.com/diagram.php?...77&hg=11&fg=45

Jim

[midengineracer]

I have never worked for BMW motorrad, but if it is similar to the car side:
The waterpump will not be considered a serviceable item, strickly remove and replace. You can probably get the parts and if you feel tenacious, do the repair yourself. I think it is more effort than it will be worth in the long run, but that may be your thing. I work on my stuff less and less the older I get...
I for one highly recommend the dealership do it for you for two reasons:
An American mechanic gets paid to do the work (and hopefully is good at his job)
BMW pays all the associated costs for the repair (takes euros from the Germans and puts dollars in our economy)

Oh, and a third, they still warranty it for the rest of the warranty or for the parts warranty, whichever is longer. Depending on how anal the dealership is about checking stuff, if you take apart the water pump, regardless of why, they are no longer responsible to fix the bike unless you can provide documentation to back up your skills. It can become a long drawn out fight for something that is basically free to you and costs the dealers money.

I take my bike in more often than it truly needs (I would ignore a lot of stuff it if wasn't under warranty) and the dealership gets paid for looking.

The link, is that to the Lynchburg, VA dealer (Edit: Never mind, I read the second header after staring at the parts)? They aren't far from where I call home (not that I am ever there).

[jrwooden]

Thanks MER...

the Lynchberg dealer is the only one I know that has the microfiche on line... I'm sure there are others but theirs is handy.

I'm not going to disassemble since the bike is only a few months old, I will let dealer do it if I conclude it needs doing...

I only hesitate for fear of some unintended consequence ... i.e. something gets dicked up as a result ....

I would presume a new water pump, gaskets & o-rings + new anti-freeze would fix it ... if there even is a problem....
I am going to let it ride till later in any event!

Thanks for your help!
Jim

[Flip Up]

Well at about the 2K mile mark now and I have more oily seepage ... not a lot ... about the size of a dime...

Anybody else got this?
Am I the only one, or am I the only one that is this anal

Jim

My bike got it too though just ever slightly. 1300kms on the clock now. I'll have the dealer look at the water pump when I take it in to get the forks done under warranty.

I could be wrong but I don't think its left over lube seal, looks too much like engine oil.

[jrwooden]

Flip-up:

thanks!
Keep us posted....
I thinking that if mine does not get any worse I'll just push it off until the service interval for a coolant change and maybe get a free one?

I do agree, it does look like motor oil but hard to say for sure.
My local dealer is ready to replace if I ask, no push back expected.

Thanks,
Jim

[Flip Up]

The dealer has confirmed the sweat is engine oil, they have ordered a new water pump. If all goes well it should be installed this week.

[jrwooden]

Hmmmmmmmm any idea how they determined that it was engine oil?

Just curious

Thanks,
Jim

[Flip Up]

They didn't say how. For all I know he could have wiped a bit off with his index finger and stuck it in his mouth

Hats off to them though, the service has been great and a loan bike to top it off.

[jrwooden]

Ya see "In the old days" .... when I was a famous mechanic we would have put a small packet of (harmless) fluorescent dye in the engine oil and asked the customer to come back in a week and then inspected it with a black light.

Now they have all this modern "taste test" technology

Like you my local dealer seems fine to work with, and I did not buy bike there... (long sad story ... I wanted to buy local but ..... it didn't happen)

Jim

[Flip Up]

I wanted to buy local or close enough, they were great to deal with, but..... there was a three month wait. I ended up buying from a dealer further away. They had the model I was after sitting in the showroom all ready to go.

BTW new water pump is in now, they did the radiator hose recall at the same time. The only diffrence is the coolant is green.

[BMWHillbilly]

I have the same problem with weep hole seepage of oil from the water pump. I just noticed the problem during a visual inspection the following day after riding hard the day before in extremely hot conditions (105-108 heat indices) Looks like the oil seepage trailed around the cylinder heads at the seam ( i hope that is the case) or I have a gasket problem too. Going to take it to the dealer today.

09 F650GS, 3200 miles on the clock

[NTBill]

I've got my bike (2008 F65 at the dealers at the moment for similar (weeping water pump seal and rocker cover leak). They've had it for 4 days now and told me they're having trouble getting the water pump out and are now talking slide hammers (pulling) as it appears frozen on the shaft...

I read somewhere that the impellor is srewed onto the shaft. Can anyone confirm this? Have searched for diagrams etc but the ones I've found don't show clearly.

A slide hammer isn't going to leave a pretty picture if this is the case. I would like to assume they know their product...and I can't really complain too much as they've given me a new K1300S to use (bike is my every day transport) while mine is in hospital. Dangerous from my perspective as I'm rapidly getting to like it.

My bike still has 12 months warranty on it (has done 17,000 km), so I'm reasonably comfortable that they'll cover - and their service has always been good.

However, any knowledge on the pump assembly (from those with access to a manual) would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Bill

[Flip Up]

Sorry can't help out with a manual, but my pump took a day to change over. The sad thing is just after a couple of months there is mist around the weep hole again. I'm not sure if I should just let it slide as it really is bugger all oil coming out.

[BMWHillbilly]

My understanding is they just replace the internals of the water pump. I saw the box mine came in and it looked like the size of ring box...lol. Not sure of the impeller but it looked like all I had for my water pump replacement were the seals. so far so good though.

[Joelw]

My pump started weeping oil at about 2,000 miles. The quantity was small but it did wick around the cylinder head to block crevices initially causing me some concern until I cleaned it off with some brake clean and confirmed it was just the water pump.

I used a rather unorthodox method of resealing it.

1: remove oil dipstick and radiator cap, not the expansion tank cap but the radiator cap itself. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!, if you don't remove the oil dipstick AND the RADIATOR cap (not the expansion tank cap!!!) you risk pressurizing these systems and blowing a lot of shit up in the next step!

2: clean the inside of the water pump cavity by squirting lots of soap and water in the weep hole

3: take a blow gun with a rubber tip attached to an air compressor and pressurize the hell out of the water pump weep hole cavity.

4: Bleed the air out of the cooling system that this procedure installs using the bleed bolt and procedure BMW prescribes.



This method worked for me, or at least it has for the last 3,000 miles, no more oil weep.
I believe the deal is during assembly the lip on the oil seal got turned inside out on the pump shaft and pressurizing the cavity reversed it.

I have some experience using this method from my Volvo service manager days on all manner of seals when lip reversal is the problem and I can somehow get air pressure on the outside of the seal.


THIS IS NOT an approved BMW method. My BMW dealership's service manager was appalled at my method lol. On the other hand he is not going to void my water pumps warranty because he had already ordered another pump to replace mine before I fixed it on my own, now he has a pump in stock if someone else needs it. or if mine starts leaking again some day.


The F800GS demonstrator at same dealership also weeps oil from this hole but only a very tiny amount, much less then mine did. As I understand it BMW may not warranty a pump for a very slight weep but will for a drip like mine had. Not surprising, Volvo does exactly the same.

I would not suggest this procedure for anyone not qualified and it is easiest to just let the dealer deal with it, but it may be useful for anyone out of warranty although it will only help if the oil or water seal lip is truly reversed.

Once again, if you do this, remove the oil dipstick and radiator cap and leave them off during pressurizing the weep hole cavity. Then bleed your cooling system of air bubbles.
Neither is hard but if you don't do them BAD things will happen

[Flip Up]

My understanding is they just replace the internals of the water pump. I saw the box mine came in and it looked like the size of ring box...lol. Not sure of the impeller but it looked like all I had for my water pump replacement were the seals. so far so good though.

I did question my dealer if they would rebuild or replace the water pump. Then he pulled out the new water pump (box was about the size of tennis ball) and told me it would be a complete replacement not rebuild. Don't know why but they told me the water pump is a non serviceable unit.

[NTBill]

Thanks for those replies. I'll have a chat to the mechanic doing the job on Monday. Hopefully I'll get my bike back by then. Have to say though that the K1300 They've given me to tide me over is a very nice (and quick) mile muncher - albeit paved miles.
Cheers
Bill.

[jrwooden]

I've got my bike (2008 F65 at the dealers at the moment for similar (weeping water pump seal and rocker cover leak). They've had it for 4 days now and told me they're having trouble getting the water pump out and are now talking slide hammers (pulling) as it appears frozen on the shaft...

I read somewhere that the impellor is srewed onto the shaft. Can anyone confirm this? Have searched for diagrams etc but the ones I've found don't show clearly.

A slide hammer isn't going to leave a pretty picture if this is the case. I would like to assume they know their product...and I can't really complain too much as they've given me a new K1300S to use (bike is my every day transport) while mine is in hospital. Dangerous from my perspective as I'm rapidly getting to like it.

My bike still has 12 months warranty on it (has done 17,000 km), so I'm reasonably comfortable that they'll cover - and their service has always been good.

However, any knowledge on the pump assembly (from those with access to a manual) would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Bill

Bill:

Actually ... the manual does say to use a slide-hammer to remove it ...
The impeller unscrews, but then to remove the shaft & housing the manual says:

Remove screw (1) - one screw holding the pump housing into the cylinder head

Fit adapter (No. 00 8 58 to the coolant-pump shaft.

Secure the pull rod (No. 00 8 581)and impact weight (No. 00 8 582) and remove coolant pump (2) with the drive gear.


Remove the drive gear

There is a picture ... and the pull-rod and impact weight correspond (in English) to a "slide hammer"

[NTBill]

Jim,
Thanks for that. Got the bike back today but didn't get a chance to catch up with the mechanic. Suffice to say they had a few problems getting the pump clear of the frame - hence had the bike for 5 days. That meant I had the K1300 for 5 days also...I was reluctant to give it back.

Thanks again.
Bill

[jrwooden]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm I had not thought through the "clearance" issues, but from the pictures in the shop manual the part is pretty "thick" and as a result could be hard to "thread" out from between the engine & frame ...

Based on that, I may just let mine weep for a while and see what happens... or try Joel's approach

Jim

[Richard230]

Speaking of K1300's, my dealer tells me that they have been very reliable - except for the new "Japanese-style" turn indicator switch gear. Apparently, quite a few of these switches have been failing on the new bikes and have needed replacement. It sounds like BMW continues to have problems with equipment supplier quality control.

[NTBill]

Speaking of K1300's, my dealer tells me that they have been very reliable - except for the new "Japanese-style" turn indicator switch gear. Apparently, quite a few of these switches have been failing on the new bikes and have needed replacement. It sounds like BMW continues to have problems with equipment supplier quality control.

I've got to say the jap style switch was my least favourite bit of this otherwise VERY nice bike. Switch felt cheap.

After 5 days on it - jumping back on to my 658 felt a tad strange, but the paddles fell easily to hand.

(However...I do miss that 175 hp, the turbine sounding engine, fantastic braking, amazing stability, good pillion comfort, and the rush when rolling that throttle on. $29k is just a bit hard to come at though).

[xlv]

Hello!
My 650 has leaked from day one, it´s not a lot but it is there. Has anyone had this problem and not done anything about it? like it could be from the assambly and maybe stop after a couple of more miles. I´ve spoken to the dealer and they will look at it at the next (first) service but i would like to keep my bike out of the shop for a few more months if it´s going to take 3-5 days to fix, we have some great riding weather in sweden at moment and soon enough it´s going to get really cold and dark around here, then they can have my bike for as long as it take

/Mike

[jrwooden]

Mike:

Likewise mine has been leaking "weeping" ... since new, but not very much.
I think if the dealer has the parts in stock this should be not more than a couple hours work.
On the other hand, while I could be wrong, I don't see any reason to panic over getting it replaced right away.
I have personally decided to wait until closer to the end of the standard warranty period so as to get a free coolant change out of it and a new pump closer to time the warranty expires.

I have talkd to my local dealer about it and he was pretty laid back about the whole thing.
"$hit happens, let us know, we'll order in the parts, and fix it whenever it's good for you"

[xlv]

Mike:

Likewise mine has been leaking "weeping" ... since new, but not very much.
I think if the dealer has the parts in stock this should be not more than a couple hours work.
On the other hand, while I could be wrong, I don't see any reason to panic over getting it replaced right away.
I have personally decided to wait until closer to the end of the standard warranty period so as to get a free coolant change out of it and a new pump closer to time the warranty expires.

I have talkd to my local dealer about it and he was pretty laid back about the whole thing.
"$hit happens, let us know, we'll order in the parts, and fix it whenever it's good for you"

I dont have to get it replaced right away, it just feels a bit boring to have this "bug" on a new top dollar motorbike. But your idea of getting a free coolant change sounds god, maybe i should go for that to.
/Thanks

[Duvskog]

Mike:

Where in Sweden? What dealer?

Brgds

Daniel

[xlv]

Mike:

Where in Sweden? What dealer?

Brgds

Daniel

Hej Daniel, skriver väl på knagglig engelska så att dom andra också förstår.

The company that´s going to do the service is KW-service in Strängnäs, but the bike is bought very close to you at Bikestop.
I talked to a few bmw dealers before i came in contakt with Claes
at Bikestop and i have only god things to say about them so far.

/Mike

[NTBill]

Mike:

Likewise mine has been leaking "weeping" ... since new, but not very much.
I think if the dealer has the parts in stock this should be not more than a couple hours work.
On the other hand, while I could be wrong, I don't see any reason to panic over getting it replaced right away.
I have personally decided to wait until closer to the end of the standard warranty period so as to get a free coolant change out of it and a new pump closer to time the warranty expires.

I have talkd to my local dealer about it and he was pretty laid back about the whole thing.
"$hit happens, let us know, we'll order in the parts, and fix it whenever it's good for you"

I had the oil leak (rocker cover gasket) fixed at same time as leaking water pump seal. I was told they had problems getting the water pump housing out and this is what took the time.

Agree - it's not an urgent one, however I was sick of the sight of oil leaking down the side of the engine and, given this is my every day transport my dealer was particularly helpful, giving me the replacement bike (K1300S) to get around on - sooo I wasn't too concerned if it took them 12 months to fix.

Must say tho, now its all sorted it's nice to have the oil stay on the inside of the engine for a change.

Bill.

[henshama]

Jim I have noticed the same on my 2009 F650GS. I have also washed this properly and will also monitor closely. Will let you know if further developments occur. Regards MArk

[jrwooden]

Jim I have noticed the same on my 2009 F650GS. I have also washed this properly and will also monitor closely. Will let you know if further developments occur. Regards MArk

Thanks! for the reply!

Mine seems to have stopped for the time being, so maybe it was some assembly lubricant that has now finished "melting out" of the pump. I noticed a trickle of anti-freeze down the side of the engine (from the pump)right after my pump housing was sanded and new hose fitted by the dealer but that has not re-occured either so I'm just kinda watching .... with 2 years of warranty left I'm not excited about it ... Yet

I'm in the middle of a 2K mile ride and so far no issues!

Jim

[BykMyk]

All,
My water pump has been weeping since I bought the bike, at first I thought it was just the grease melting out but it has continued to weep (I now have 4200 mi.). The amount is very small and the leak seems to be affected by the temperature of the engine, since I get more after a long hot ride. I did a track day a couple of weekends ago and noticed a bit more weeping as a result of the "brisk" pace that I ran the bike. I think that it has probably leaked a teaspoon full of oil total in 4500 mi.

I'm going to wait until winter and have my dealer do the water pump and fuel tank replacement all together.
Mike

[Richard230]

My guess is that the pump seal might have been damaged when the pump was installed at the factory. I agree that the water pump should be replaced by your dealer under warranty.

[BMWHillbilly]

Mine still weeps after replacement but this time it's just antifreeze and not oil. Like BykMyk says it tends to weep after a long hot "spirited" ride. It doesn't leak much and i'm not too worried. I will just keep an eye on it and make sure it doesn't get any worse.