Sticking gear

[gonadz]

Ever since I've had my F I've had instances where it hangs in 2nd gear.
When shifting through the gears it gets stuck in 2nd with the selector not yet having released back into position so the next gear is available. It's fine through all the rest of the cogs (4th-5th false neutral aside)

Whats annoying me is it seems to be getting worse with time, contrary to what I'd hoped.

Has anyone else had a similar issue ? I'm working on the assumption it's an engine-out job with mucho $$$ involved

[notacop]

If it's any consolation, after 60K miles mine does that once in while. Mostly it's my lazy foot. It can be any gear mostly on the up shift.

[gonadz]

I can literally feel the selector finally drop back into position after a few seconds, way slower than I peddle from 2nd to 3rd.

I'm guessing it's some sort of clearance issue with thge selector drm, but my previous experience with older bikes was more slop rather than less clearance

[stephen]

Is this happening while in motion or at a stop? My old K75s would hang up if I rolled up to a stop with out shifting down while in motion. Also, on my F800st, the shifting is dodgy until the engine is completely warmed, it can be challenging trying to drop into neutral when cold after bringing it out of the back yard and parking while I close the gate.

Stephen

[gonadz]

Is this happening while in motion or at a stop? My old K75s would hang up if I rolled up to a stop with out shifting down while in motion. Also, on my F800st, the shifting is dodgy until the engine is completely warmed, it can be challenging trying to drop into neutral when cold after bringing it out of the back yard and parking while I close the gate.

Stephen

It's always in motion changing up through the gears, and as far as I've made a mental note of it seems worse when warm. This all points towards something having less clearance than needed and has me a bit perplexed. Like most riders I find the gearbox something of a mystery - engines I understand well.

While gearshifts in general are often smoother with fresh oil this issue seems impervious to that variable (current oil only done 5k km's)

[Walrus1]

I have had this problem on all 3 F800's I've had. So it must be my fault in changing gear badly.
I've tried to do it right, and usually don't have problems at low speed. But if I try and do a racing start, I can guarantee it will stick in 2nd until I back the throttle off, at which point the gear lever will drop down and let me change into 3rd.

[gonadz]

I have had this problem on all 3 F800's I've had. So it must be my fault in changing gear badly.
I've tried to do it right, and usually don't have problems at low speed. But if I try and do a racing start, I can guarantee it will stick in 2nd until I back the throttle off, at which point the gear lever will drop down and let me change into 3rd.

Yep - thats the same issue, shut the throttle and the load shift within the drivetrain releases the shifter.
By the very fact you've had it on all 3 F's I gather you didn't find a cure, I guess thats the other thing I was hoping to hear

[stephen]

I have had problems dropping from 6th to 5th after long high speed (75-85mph) running in hot weather. Not a major problem, however. It has to be pretty hot. Clearly, in my case, temperature is an issue.

Stephen

[Walrus1]

I've not experienced it on other makes of bikes I've owned, so put it down to me not being able to get used to BMW gearboxes.
I mean, no one else seems to suffer it, so it must be me (and you!)

[richarde1605]

Sounds like second gear is not fully engaged when power is put on, if this is the case the selector drum is not in 2nd gear position hence it can't select 3rd, when you back of in this situation the undercut on the dogs on the gears pulls the gear fully into mesh. If I had the problem, I would lower the gear lever so the selector would move slightly earlier and further fully engaging 2nd before load is applied. Lowering the lever lower would also help the 4-5 change for the same reason.
2 cents

[gonadz]

I did lower the selector level to address the 4th - 5th issue, but it's had no affect on the sticking 2nd issue.

I hear you on the gear selection but can't imagine that's the issue as it's engaging 2nd fine but taking way longer for the selector lever to return to position (and only in 2nd). If it was a technique issue it would be affecting other gears at other times too. I have had the issue you describe when a partially selected cog re-positions itself with a hearty clunk under power.

I do miss my Suzuki's gearbox, no slop, easy smooth downshifts and smooth positive upshifts regardless of revs or throttle.
Apart from this I love my S, nice nimble bike thats easy to throw around city streets and highways - and makes nice noises too when you ditch the stock can

[richarde1605]

Ok Phil, I hear you, the main reason for a issue with a 1st-2nd change is that the drum has to move twice the angular rotation ie. through N to 2nd. Many race bikes have their gearing set up so only 2nd to 4th, 5th or 6th is used, to avoid this troublesome change. The only way then to fix your bike then is to modify the drum, selector forks and or stops, or modify your riding. Don't gas it in 1st, make a safe, smooth change to 2nd, and then smoke their ^rses'

4 cents

[gonadz]

Ok Phil, I hear you, the main reason for a issue with a 1st-2nd change is that the drum has to move twice the angular rotation ie. through N to 2nd. Many race bikes have their gearing set up so only 2nd to 4th, 5th or 6th is used, to avoid this troublesome change. The only way then to fix your bike then is to modify the drum, selector forks and or stops, or modify your riding. Don't gas it in 1st, make a safe, smooth change to 2nd, and then smoke their ^rses'

4 cents

Good plan - except it's the change from 2nd into 3rd thats affected, I give it some in 1st and 2nd, go to hook up third and the lever's still up high waiting to drop back down. I posted this as I'm getting alittle bit bored with sounding like a newb who misses gear changes 4th to 5th false neutrals are much less now I've dropped my selector

I've not looked in my Haynes manual at the selector drum set up, but seeing how I know Bvgger all about gearboxes I doubt I will gain any enlightenment from there. Just checking it wasn't a known issue (apparently is it, but only to a limited degree) and there's no known, preferably easy, fix.

that'll teach me for having a noisey end can that broadcasts missed shifts

[richarde1605]

Sorry, my bad!!! Sorry I was not trying to make you feel that way Phil. Bring your bike over here, we can drop my spare '07 engine in it to see if it makes a difference? Might be machining tolerances of the shift drum detent???

Fit the stock can......Sorry

[Walrus1]

If I lower my lever any further it'll be vertical to the ground!
I've always put my trouble down to the fact my left foot doesn't "rotate" as much as my right due to not exercising enough after I broke my tib and fib
on the bumper of a Jeep Cherokee back in 1984! (Bastard pulled out from the kerb without looking)

But it does seem to be a BMW "quirk".....

[gonadz]

Sorry, my bad!!! Sorry I was not trying to make you feel that way Phil. Bring your bike over here, we can drop my spare '07 engine in it to see if it makes a difference? Might be machining tolerances of the shift drum detent???

Fit the stock can......Sorry

hehehe - I've been riding 28 years so I'm not that insecure
just putting it out there to see if anyone else had the same problem - and hopefully a solution.

I'm thinking selector drum tolerances too, but I'd thought it would abate with use rather than seemingly get worse (just my impression)

[danham]

... I've not looked in my Haynes manual at the selector drum set up, but seeing how I know Bvgger all about gearboxes I doubt I will gain any enlightenment from there. ...

Take a look on page 2*37 of your Haynes, upper right corner. Figure 17.3 shows the return spring setup for the lever. It looks to me like the likely culprit is not internal; instead I'd guess that the spring is a little tired and so some tiny wear or damage on selector arm pawls or pins on the drum is causing just enough stiction on the 2-3 shift to prevent the spring from doing its job.

All of this can be got at by removing the clutch housing, with the engine still in the frame. You may even be able to get at the spring, or clean up burrs on the pawls, or at least see what's happening without removing any clutch parts, but not having done it on this bike, I'm guessing a bit and it looks like the clutch does have to come off to replace or fix the spring mechanism.

-dan

[Walrus1]

Dan, in my case I experienced it from new.

[danham]

Kevin,

Very interesting. Has it been fixed? Did it go away by itself, or get worse, or what?

My theory, from the armchair, is that the lever can stick in the up or down position regardless of what's happening with the drum. And if the drum hangs, it is less likely to leave one of its pins in position to prevent the lever from returning so much as prevent the next stroke of the lever from accomplishing a shift.

All easy to guess at from this end of the wire, but just a thought.

-dan

[gonadz]

Whatever the cause, loading/unloading the drivetrain releases it so I'm thinking of some component that is under load while power is on. I like the return spring theory but I'm not sure it fits with my observed behaviours.

Given the severity of the issue is at the 'mildly annoying' rather than unrideable end of the spectrum I'm not likely to fork out for an engine out gearbox stripdown to investigate whats happening. But thats what the interweb is for everyone elses (un)informed opinions

[danham]

That last clue -- unloading the drivetrain -- kinda kiboshes the spring theory, sorry to say. New armchair theory, and one that would indeed require a big teardown, is the dogs munged enough on 3rd gear to prevent full engagement until drivetrain "unloads." Hope I'm wrong.

-dan

[gonadz]

Yeah - I hate it when a good (cheap) theory fails to stand up

Unless I lunch this engine completely one day I doubt It'll ever come out of the frame for any form of stripdown.
Actually that inspires me to tweak this thread a little

If you got a spare engine dirt cheap, and had time on your hands what if anything would you be tempted to do to it ?
included in this could be head/port work, pistons, balancing.... pretty much anything that could be considered either an enhancement or a preventative measure.

Given how fond I've become of my S, if NZ had a greater pool of potential spare parts bikes and I got a hell deal on a parts bike I'd be tempted. If only it had a few more HP........

[Mokkybear]

Um - dumb question. You have checked all the external linkages to ensure everything rotates smoothly to the full extent required, haven't you?

[danham]

... If you got a spare engine dirt cheap, and had time on your hands what if anything would you be tempted to do to it ?
included in this could be head/port work, pistons, balancing.... pretty much anything that could be considered either an enhancement or a preventative measure...

Preventive: Cam chain and its guides (and tensioner). New alternator stator and flywheel. Rings and clean up bores as needed.

Fun: porting/polishing.

-dan

[gonadz]

Um - dumb question. You have checked all the external linkages to ensure everything rotates smoothly to the full extent required, haven't you?

Smart answer - yes, and it only affects one gear so I'd assume it's not gear lever or linkages.
Feel free to offer obvious suggestions, we're all capable of having a brain fart and missing one

[Walrus1]

Kevin,

Very interesting. Has it been fixed? Did it go away by itself, or get worse, or what?

-dan

Well, I've never reported it to the dealer, and as it happens from new, and on all 3 F800's I've owned, I consider it a BMW quirk that doesn't suit my style of gear changing.
Never gets worse, and doesn't go away.
One day I'll try and see if I can train myself to change differently. But as gonadz says, it's just mildly annoying.

[danham]

Kevin,

I also have some experience with three F800s, two owned by friends, and none of them do this. Not trying to contradict you at all, just very curious.

If you put the bike in third gear with the engine off and parked on the sidestand (assuming yours sticks in third like Phil's), does the lever return to the middle position easily?

I'm scratching my head over how shifting "technique" (barring brute force) could cause this.

-dan

[gonadz]

Kevin,

If you put the bike in third gear with the engine off and parked on the sidestand (assuming yours sticks in third like Phil's), does the lever return to the middle position easily?

I'm scratching my head over how shifting "technique" (barring brute force) could cause this.

-dan

I can't really imagine how force (brute or otherwise) or technique would alter a shift lever remaining stuck in the up position and not releasing back down.
In any normal shift this happens pretty much immediately but in this case as you go change up from 2nd into 3rd the lever just moves up without engaging anything untill it's at the top of it's stroke.

Close then open the throttle again and you'll feel the lever drop down - and in my case tap the top of my still expectant toe

[danham]

Phil,

Sorry; I wasn't very clear. Brute force when applied to shifting can bend or burr the shift dogs inside the trans. They then have trouble engaging in the holes they're supposed to fill and things get hung up. In theory this could leave the external shift drum pins (the ones that stick out into the clutch housing) in a position which prevents the lever from returning, but this is a stretch.

What I was trying to say is the same thing you say in your first sentence: I can't imagine how technique would make the lever stick. This was supposed to be in response to Kevin's comment about changing the way he shifts, which if we are correct, would do precisely nothing.

-dan

[gonadz]

Phil,
Sorry; I wasn't very clear. Brute force when applied to shifting can bend or burr the shift dogs inside the trans. They then have trouble engaging in the holes they're supposed to fill and things get hung up. In theory this could leave the external shift drum pins (the ones that stick out into the clutch housing) in a position which prevents the lever from returning, but this is a stretch.

What I was trying to say is the same thing you say in your first sentence: I can't imagine how technique would make the lever stick. This was supposed to be in response to Kevin's comment about changing the way he shifts, which if we are correct, would do precisely nothing.

-dan

all good Dan, thanks for clarifying your thoughts and idea's on the subject - this is exactly why I posted it as I wanted to hear the ideas and suggestions of the collective hive mind here on the forum.
It's not all the time, and seems to be more likely when I've given it gas in 1st and 2nd gears and going for 3rd

I got the bike as an ex-crash patch up, so can't rule out knocks etc as I believe it dropped on the left side looking at the minor scuffs on the clutch cover

[danham]

Now that you mention the crash, it prompts me to suggest taking the clutch cover off. It's a lot of bolts but not a lot of work and being able to see exactly what the shift mechanism pieces are doing in there would go a long way toward solving this. Obviously it's not worth doing until/unless the issue becomes more than a minor irritant, but your public wants to know [grin].

-dan

[gonadz]

Now that you mention the crash, it prompts me to suggest taking the clutch cover off. It's a lot of bolts but not a lot of work and being able to see exactly what the shift mechanism pieces are doing in there would go a long way toward solving this. Obviously it's not worth doing until/unless the issue becomes more than a minor irritant, but your public wants to know [grin].

-dan

I stand corrected, it was the other side it dropped on - I must find a pic of the selector drum, I'm now visualising the detent for 2nd gear having worn and allowing the selector pin to 'wedge' in somehow. The harder I gas it the more likely it is to stick (in my mind I picture it being forced in tighter by the increased engine torque)

[simclair]

Sounds like a gearbox internal issue. I think I would look at all the external linkages, and shaft and make sure that all are straight and true before motor out and stripping it down - or deciding to put up with it. Top end can stay in place for the strip I think.

Had a similar issue on my XR650 and found minor wear on a selector fork and almost imperceptible wear on the gear dogs. Replaced this and the offending gear pairs and all was good again. It only needs a few thou of wear to make selectors play up.

Good luck