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Notchy missing down shifts in 1st ,2nd & 3rd

8K views 51 replies 14 participants last post by  Pat H 
#1 ·
I've been experiencing problems with the down shifting on my F700GS,,. 38,000 kms, oil level up and 2000kms on the current oil which is the OEM recommended 15W-50 ADVANTEC,,. This is the only oil ever used on the bike?

Upshifts are OK, down shifts in 5th and 4th are OK but lately the downshifts from 3rd to 2ns and down into 1st are either missing or very notchy but not consistently so,,. Some shifts into the bottom 2 gears can be relatively smooth,,. Its possible this problem is worse when downshifting at higher RPM,,.

The only thing I've changed is a new clutch lever with a more adjustable range to it and frankly its come with a lot of twiddling and adjustment both at the lever and down at the clutch itself? I currently have this adjusted to the point of the correct amount of free play approx. 3 or 4 MM and this has been verified by other more knowledgeable F800 owners?
I've also adjusted to have too much free play and not enough free play in attempt to over come the issue and neither scenario has offered much of an improvement?

The bike has in the past exhibited a similar notchy problematic downshifting problem when cold, with cold start and first 3 mins of operation and then seems fine after?

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated?
 
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#2 ·
Use a different motor oil. My F800S does not like BMW synthetic oils. Shifting now as smooth as if it was a Honda dirtbike. It loves my 10 year old supply of 15W-40 Delo. I don't know what I will do when I run out.
 
#3 ·
My F650GS has always had a notchy gearbox, which has never felt very smooth, no matter what oil I use. But it still works, which is a good thing, I believe. [;)]

My recommendation is to adjust the clutch lever so that it has minimal play, then pull the clutch lever in to the grip when shifting and see if that helps. If it does help your shifting then you know what the problem is and you will just have to reduce your clutch cable play to 1 or 2mm. That should be enough play, but check the cable slack when the engine is hot and during hot weather to be sure that there remains some play in the cable under all conditions. Also check the tightness of your shift lever to be sure that it is not wobbling on the shaft.
 
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#4 ·
The thing to remember about adjustable levers is that they can be adjusted in so far that you can't physically move the lever far enough to fully disengage the clutch. The factory levers are designed with this in mind and it's why they don't come in as far as some would like. Freeplay is just to keep from slipping when you turn the bars, full engagement takes travel. Try adjusting the lever back out and see if that helps.
 
#5 ·
Thanks for the tips Guys,

1)I think I adjusted the cable all the way from no free play to way to much and the problem persisted, better at times and worse,,.
2)Tried the new lever all the way in and all the way out, problem persisted?
3)Previous to changing the lever I never had cause to adjust the cable, was always fine,. Might put the OEM lever back on and see how that goes?

4)This is from a previous blog and may be my issue, I hope for a simpler solution but sounds the same as my problem, only thing is mine only does maybe 20% of the time?

I experienced something similar. There are 2 things at play: there's a pawl on the gear selector which must engage the next lower (or higher) post in the rotating transmission gear set (probably not the right words... it would be clear with a repair manual illustration). If you don't lift your foot high enough after a downshift, the pawl won't engage the next location on the selector and you'll miss the next shift.

When you have difficulty selecting a gear when downshifting and have to increase force on the shift lever, that is possibly a problem with a bent pawl on the gear selector. There's no way for the dealer tech to easily see what is going on as the pawl is inside the gear box and your dealer isn't going to go in there unless there's a for-certain problem. He's going to tell you that you are the problem and more than 90% of the time he'll be right.

In my case my F800GS suddenly developed a 1-speed transmission: I was stuck in first gear. I was fortunate that the BMW tech rep was at the dealer the day after I rode the bike in and confirmed that he'd seen the same problem on other F800 models but this was the first time he'd seen it on the -GS (it was inevitable since the gear box is the same).

Apparently the symptom is that you can downshift (possibly with difficulty) but you can't upshift. I found it counter intuitive since I'd never had a problem upshifting. When they took the cover off, they found the problem was that the shift-pawl was bent. When that happens they have to replace the gear selector. The shaft of the gear selector is what the shift lever is attached to. Not a huge operation: the bike was on the lift with the side cover off and only the gear selector was out of the gear box.

I'd suggest getting an appointment with your dealer and tell them about your complaint. But don't expect them to tear into it until you can't shift. At least there will be a record of your concern.
 
#6 ·
It is axiomatic that when something is wrong with a motorcycle the most likely cause is something the owner did to the bike, ostensibly to make it better. Don't feel bad, most of us have done it. Sounds to me as if you have adjusted the clutch into a problem and replacing the new lever with the OE lever and adjusting the cable to its previous condition is a good place to start in fixing your problem. Good luck!
 
#7 ·
Ok, so switched out the levers and re tested and problem persists,,.

Further investigation leads me to this as the likely culprit? For putting around this problem is not bad but for city or more aggressive riding it represents a considerable safety hazard so I'm going to the dealer in a week, if they have a quick fix I will let them do it, if not I will follow the instructions from the pasted thread,,. Its a bit dated but sounds like somewhat of a common problem for this type of bike?

"Update on my 3rd to 2nd shift problem. It finally got the better of me at 34000 klm's so I followed a good youtube video on removal and repair of the gear selector. Mine was not as bad as some examples I found on various forums but was visibly bent or deformed. It seams to be a soft metal and taps into shape fairly easily. I did not use heat as in the video but as I said mine was not as badly damaged. More like wear and tear. After reassembly and test ride the problem appears to have been fixed. If it reappears in the future I will buy a new one. AUD $160.00. The job itself is not difficult. I'm no mechanic and managed it easily. I found the best info searching for F800GS gear selector problems."
 
#9 · (Edited)
Hi Bever,,,.No sometimes the shift lever wont even budge into second, other times its notchy but the gear doesn't change so definitely the problem is this bent paw,,.

"When you have difficulty selecting a gear when downshifting and have to increase force on the shift lever, that is possibly a problem with a bent pawl on the gear selector."

Have Friend coming tomorrow and we will open up clutch cover and see what we can see,,. I think this is minor as its working in all gears and 75% of the time in 1's and 2nd,,. Hopefully we can straighten it,,.
 
#10 ·
Good luck, Lyle. Let us now how it turns out. Taking a few photos of anything interesting would be great, too.
 
#11 ·
Sorry Richard, didn't see the request for the photo's till now,,.

So my very knowledgeable friend came over,,, we laid the bike at a 45 degree angle and removed the cover side stand and foot peg to access the internal shift mechanism,,. We removed the "gear selector assemble," and as suspected it looked to be in pristine condition,,. There were a couple of little minor burs from manufacture, one of the fork tongs was rubbing on the plate so we did some minor touch up with a file,,. My friend thought he could see a very minor bend in the soft brass plate that usually gets bent however I could not see it,,. He did a slight bend with a crescent wrench, we reassembled, road tested 40Kms and "Bobs Your Uncle",,,, problem resolved,,!!

I would say the 1st,2nd & neutral shifting is "not " smooth as silk when compared with my Ninia 1000, however its likely within the design spec for the little GS,,.

Needless to say, I'm happy as can be and very thankful my friend paid me a visit yesterday,,!!
 
#13 ·
Hello Lag, I have learnt from my F800R that some gear boxes seems to be more difficult than others to work smoothly. My bike is also 38,000 km and was serviced at 30.000 km when I bought it. From the beginning I was affraid I got some damaged bike, later, one of mechanic I know told me it´s mostly characteristic of these motors: rotax two in line. Searched for some help about this issue because it was so frurtrating to find that my Husqvarna TR650 Shifted absolutely smooth, and in the F800 was almost imposible to spot the neutral point when it was most needed. Found some fantastic advise and it´s to do some short throttling before shifting. This is the way it works: when you get to a stop light, you go from 3rd to 2nd, then 1st giving the bike throttle blipping downshifting. The shift will be super smooth and easy, and for my sake, found out that what happened to be so difficult to go from 1st to neutral when stoped was to use the same throttle blimp, but in this case you should touch firmly upwards the shift lever befor blimping, and also do so when upshifting 2nd, 3rd...and so on. Sounds pretty easy, and it is, but you have to practice. I´m sure this will make you love your machine more than you do now.
Cheers and enjoy yourself.
 
#14 ·
It could be my imagination but it seems as though finding the right oil can make my notchy F650GS's transmission shift a little smoother. But the trouble with modern oils is that the manufacturers continually change their formulations and product names faster than I can change my motor oil. :rolleyes:
 
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#15 ·
OK, unfortunately this thread is back and so is my downshifting to second problem, weave had the gear selector shaft assembly out twice and it looks pretty dam straight so at this point I'm kindah at a loss as to how to proceed,. I'm considering switching oil, & replacing the selector shaft assembly anyways even thou I don't think either will necessarily fix the issue, I've found online a few other examples of folks having the same problem with there 798cc twins?

Found this old thread on line and it describes my problem to a "T" however there was never a solution,,.

I have a 65 F800GS, just got it back from its 1 year service.

I have a problem where going from 3rd gear into 2nd one of three things can happen:
- The shifter is stiff and I have to let off before trying to press back down again
- I shift the lever down but it stays in 3rd (i.e. a false shift)
- I actually go into 2nd gear

The problem seems to be when the bike is cold and after a few shifts up and down the box it seems to be ok, but I have to make sure in my mind to give very deliberate shifts rather than just doing it as I would in any other gear.

Has anyone had experience of this before or have any suggestions?


https://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/437959-F800GS-3rd-gt-2nd-false-shift
 
#16 ·
OK, unfortunately this thread is back and so is my downshifting to second problem, weave had the gear selector shaft assembly out twice and it looks pretty dam straight so at this point I'm kindah at a loss as to how to proceed,. I'm considering switching oil, & replacing the selector shaft assembly anyways even thou I don't think either will necessarily fix the issue, I've found online a few other examples of folks having the same problem with there 798cc twins?

Found this old thread on line and it describes my problem to a "T" however there was never a solution,,.

I have a 65 F800GS, just got it back from its 1 year service.

I have a problem where going from 3rd gear into 2nd one of three things can happen:
- The shifter is stiff and I have to let off before trying to press back down again
- I shift the lever down but it stays in 3rd (i.e. a false shift)
- I actually go into 2nd gear

The problem seems to be when the bike is cold and after a few shifts up and down the box it seems to be ok, but I have to make sure in my mind to give very deliberate shifts rather than just doing it as I would in any other gear.

Has anyone had experience of this before or have any suggestions?


https://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/437959-F800GS-3rd-gt-2nd-false-shift
I don't know what to make of that. It sure sounds like an internal mechanical problem to me. If no other solution arises, you may have to visit a BMW dealer to have it sorted out. If this is an issue with other F800 models, you would think that the dealers would have come across the problem before and know how to fix it. It could even be that BMW has sent out a service memorandum regarding the issue and how to solve the problem.
 
#17 ·
Its not an uncommon problem, in many cases the bike gets knocked over on the shifter and the gear selector shaft mechanism gets twisted, they bend it straight or replace it,,.
The service manager at BMW confirmed this, as the problem became worse after they did a clutch adjustment that came along with my 40,000 valve check,,. He claimed that the two were unrelated however the clutch adjustment does seem to make it better or worse,,. BMW confirmed they would start replacing the parts that we checked and give it back to me,,. I'm a little apprehensive to let them go to town on the problem,,. I don't really trust them based on my previous experience,,.
To eliminate the clutch adjustment as a the problem I've gone back to no risers and the OEM cable set up,,. Good balanced free play, 3mm both directions,,.

As I said, "I'm grasping at straws here" I was thinking of putting a Rotella W5-40 full synthetic in (current oil is BMW's OEM 15w-50), the theory being that the thinner oil on start up will smooth out the nicheness, long enough for it to warm up,,. Its seems fine after the oil heats up?

I've heard where people claim that oil changes can have an effect on shifting, both positive and negative,,. I was hoping for some anecdotal advise in this regard,,.
 
#18 ·
The best shifting oil I have found for my F800S was a 10 year old bottle of Chevron Delo 15W-40.

"Full Synthetic" is meaningless as a performance specification.

Current formula Rotella-T6 5W-40 is among the worst shifting oils I have found. Not just "not good" but "outright bad."
 
#19 ·
Interesting,, . My friend swears by the Rotella because he had a 750 Honda with a tranny issue thats plagued the bike every time it got hot,,. He switched to the Rotella and his problem went away, totally went away,,. he thinks its smoothed out the shifting in his F800GS,,.

I'm not holding my breath, its all black magic anyways,,!!
 
#22 ·
So I've done a hot engine flush and tried the Rotella T6 5w40,,. Unfortunately it appears to have made the downshift problem way worse,,. Not sure if it was coincidental or not but the shifting was so bad i could barely get it below third on a consistent basis,,. Its never been that bad with the OEM Advantech 15w-50 so I've replaced it with that, I haven't done a through test ride on the Advantech oil however on the stand with the engine running it seems to me more of an intermittent problem again, then it was with the Rotella,,.

My friend has said he would take a third look under the clutch cover and inspect the other parts that are accessible however this is looking increasingly like an internal transmission problem,,.

There is plenty of anecdotal information on the net of others having similar shifting issues with there 798 twin setups so if anyone has had similar issues that can shed any light on the problem beyond the shifter shaft replacement I would certainly appreciate hearing from them,,. I'm hearing that this has been a relatively common problem and in some cases BMW has replaced the shifter shaft assemble both on and off warranty,,. This one appears to be in pristine condition (two inspections) however for a lack of a better idea I may replace it anyway even though it seems unlikely to be a solution,,. Next stop will be BMW,,?
 
#23 ·
Since moving to a light 5W-40 oil made things worse, I wonder if a thicker 20W-50 would make shifting better? :confused:
 
#24 · (Edited)
Thats as far as Ill go with the oil,,!!
The theory was thinner viscosity oil when cold would have the effect a hot oil so I'm kindah disappointed that the thinner oil viscosity made it worse, I hadn't held much hope however if it is worse due to an oil viscosity change in the transmission it seems be pointing to a more complicated problem,,.

Ill probable spend $200.00 on the shift selector and when that doesn't work its over to the BMW dealer,,. I thought I might call them first just to see if I can learn anything regarding the history of these problems,,. One of the techs told me that this is somewhat common to the twin 798 engine set up,,. They may know where to go with the problem based on experience, as apposed to experimenting,,.
 
#25 ·
If switching from 15W to 5w made it worse, nothing wrong with trying 20w, is there? However, it doesn't sound like oil will solve this in any event. I tend to prefer the heavier base weight oils in my engines, DRZ runs 20w-50 and shifts fine, boat motor uses 25w-40. Rule #1 for me is to thoroughly warm any engine to operating temp before the spurs begin to come out.
Not trying to start an oil thread!!
Greg
 
#26 ·
I bet a can of STP would really smooth out the shifting - if you could get it out of the can and into the oil filler hole. [uhoh]
 
#27 ·
I think I'm done with the oil experimenting, never held much hope,,. Its parts replacement time now,,.

Sure wish they would open the boarders up for cross boarder shopping,,. These Canadian merchants are getting a little greedy with the lack of competition & out of stock on everything?
 
#28 ·
I think I'm done with the oil experimenting, never held much hope,,. Its parts replacement time now,,.

Sure wish they would open the boarders up for cross boarder shopping,,. These Canadian merchants are getting a little greedy with the lack of competition & out of stock on everything?
I think it is like that with just about everything, just about everywhere - except maybe toilet paper and Clorox wipes. [;)]
 
#30 ·
Thanks Beaver,,. I can find where other owners had very similar problems however they don't always follow up on how they fixed it,,. Will keep you posted,,.

This is my first BMW, and some how I don't get the warm and fuzzies dealing with them,,.
Tried to get a bit of info out of my local dealer service department this am to no avail,,!!

- Never heard of the problem before, doesn't know anyone that has,,.
- He doesn't do quotes/estimates/or approximates or advise over the phone?
- Wont be able to look at till the third week of next month,,.
And
- Basically there going to run the clock at $150.00 per hour, till they find the problem?

Pretty much the season over for this bike,,. Lucky I have another,,!!
 
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